The realize that when you are comparing cords to mbft it is like comparing apples to oranges but non the less I thought I would ask the question. I have a large supply of secondary Hardwood logs that will only grade out to grade 3 which are in the 16-20 dbh inch range. So with the prospect that it would not grade out well as a sawlog it doesn't sound to great to just sell it for pulpwood or firewood or even pallet logs. However, I do have two mills that will take them for sawing them into construction beams of varying sizes. One quotes me $150 a cord and the other $350 per mbft (doyle scale). I have in the past always just used 500 mbft to equal one cord but was never quite clear on the conversion given all the variables of log size, species, etc... and different scales. Thoughts? For the purpose of comparing let's assume all the other variables like transportation is the same. Which one would you take as the better offer?
Price in Cords vs MBFT
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redprospector
Addicted to ArboristSite
$350 a thousand sounds about $50 a thousand better than $150 a cord.
But what do I know?
Andy
But what do I know?
Andy
forestryworks
Addicted to ArboristSite
On Doyle scale I believe a cord = 2.6 tons and 1,000 MBF = 7.2 tons (based on your given log diameters averaged together).
So $150 for 2.6 tons or $350 for 7.2 tons.
Unless I've done my math wrong, you can do the math with the numbers I've posted and find out which is best.
So $150 for 2.6 tons or $350 for 7.2 tons.
Unless I've done my math wrong, you can do the math with the numbers I've posted and find out which is best.
Thanks for the response which was helpful. I was able to find a few articles regarding weight conversions that indicated that for hardwood sawtimber (Doyle scale) it can range from from 15,000 pounds to 19,000 pounds depending on the size of the log. I have attached one article on this subject.
So for a cord of hardwood logs in the my comparsion size it would be around 5,800 lbs or a conversion factor of 2.9. At $150 dollars a cord that's approximately $52 a ton. Now a 1000 mbf of hardwood logs in my size range would be heavier than softwoods and I found two similar sources that give me mbft weights based on the doyle scale from 10 to 30 inches so a little over 8 tons seems about right. Now at $350 per Mbft that comes out to only $44 dollars a ton. Therefore, the best option appears to be the price per cords. I realize a lot of variables are involved but without previous experience with these conversions this is my best estimate. Thoughts?
So for a cord of hardwood logs in the my comparsion size it would be around 5,800 lbs or a conversion factor of 2.9. At $150 dollars a cord that's approximately $52 a ton. Now a 1000 mbf of hardwood logs in my size range would be heavier than softwoods and I found two similar sources that give me mbft weights based on the doyle scale from 10 to 30 inches so a little over 8 tons seems about right. Now at $350 per Mbft that comes out to only $44 dollars a ton. Therefore, the best option appears to be the price per cords. I realize a lot of variables are involved but without previous experience with these conversions this is my best estimate. Thoughts?
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forestryworks
Addicted to ArboristSite
Anymore it seems, domestic logs will be worth more as firewood than sawlogs.
q-tip jr
ArboristSite Member
if at all possible I will avoid any mill using Doyle if the log size is say under 22"-25" average - it then becomes a license to steal, I've seen to many loads with 4+ thousand (Int. scale) barely bring 3.25 thousand on Doyle, I don't always get a say in where they go, regrettably
bitzer
******** Timber Expert
I'm in WI and as far as I know, no one uses Doyle up here. Its all Scribner. 500bf per cord is right there. At a pulp mill you'd be getting around $100 per cord although your logs may be oversized. Firewood I get the same $100/cord delivered as 8fters. Mixed hardwood comes out to 4600lbs/cord. I use that to pay my truckers. The pulp mill figures the load in tons and the drivers get paid in cords. How do you know they are all #3s? If you want pm me and I may be able to direct you to a mill that will give you a fair price. There are some pretty shady operators to the unknowing. If its $350/mbf scribner there you go. Delivered to the mill I assume? That seems kind of high for #3s to me though.
I agree most are using the Scribner rule but some still try to quote using Doyle as it is in their favor given that on small logs it provides a larger over-run. I have attached another article as reference on 16 inche logs between scales which may be helpful to some.
Based on the Forester on the job and my experience these logs will likely scale out to grade 3 (old knotty logs). I agree with you on the firewood and last year I sold my firewood logs for similar prices as you mentioned. A decent percentage of the lower grade logs will end up as pallet bolts but I will get some better grade on some of sawlogs. Overall the harvest is estimated at 300 cords (cordwood) and 50 mbft of sawlogs. I know with Hickory a cord of hardwood logs is heavy (sold 100 cords last winter) and they weighed over 5400 LBS per cord.
It certainly would make life easier if the two bids were the same scale but the price of $150 a cord for these grade 3 hardwood logs seems reasonable. They will be used for large highway construction beams. Anyway if you take my average size logs at 16 inches on the small end as the basis for the comparison and compare it to the Scribner rule what is the better deal? No matter how I figure it I need to get over $425 mbft on the Scribner rule before they equal out. Transportation costs are about the same.
Based on the Forester on the job and my experience these logs will likely scale out to grade 3 (old knotty logs). I agree with you on the firewood and last year I sold my firewood logs for similar prices as you mentioned. A decent percentage of the lower grade logs will end up as pallet bolts but I will get some better grade on some of sawlogs. Overall the harvest is estimated at 300 cords (cordwood) and 50 mbft of sawlogs. I know with Hickory a cord of hardwood logs is heavy (sold 100 cords last winter) and they weighed over 5400 LBS per cord.
It certainly would make life easier if the two bids were the same scale but the price of $150 a cord for these grade 3 hardwood logs seems reasonable. They will be used for large highway construction beams. Anyway if you take my average size logs at 16 inches on the small end as the basis for the comparison and compare it to the Scribner rule what is the better deal? No matter how I figure it I need to get over $425 mbft on the Scribner rule before they equal out. Transportation costs are about the same.
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imagineero
Addicted to ArboristSite
Theoretically all rules balance out about the same in the same area. Whoever is scaling the logs out to be familiar with the rule they use, and you'd generally think that a rule that scales out to less board feet would come with a higher $/mbft.
In reality though, it really doesn't matter which rule they use, or what rate they quote, because in the end there's plenty of room there for interpretation. Go with a mill that has a good rep even if their rate may seem a little lower. A shady mill that quotes good prices is pretty likely to result in a smaller than expected paycheck for you.
I prefer oranges myself. Apple skin always seems to get stuck in my teeth and I can't keep my tongue from fussing with it all day long.
Shaun
In reality though, it really doesn't matter which rule they use, or what rate they quote, because in the end there's plenty of room there for interpretation. Go with a mill that has a good rep even if their rate may seem a little lower. A shady mill that quotes good prices is pretty likely to result in a smaller than expected paycheck for you.
I prefer oranges myself. Apple skin always seems to get stuck in my teeth and I can't keep my tongue from fussing with it all day long.
Shaun
