Question for loggers

[Ironworker]

I am a structural Ironworker from New York and stumbled on this site after I got into chainsaws and cutting my own firewood. Being I work in a dangerous field like you guys, I am always fascinated by other dangerous jobs such as yours and feel a sort of kinship after several close calls (have been to my share of funerals), but my question is about salary and your future, like what kind of pension and health insurance, and what kind of protection you have from company's trying to stiff you and work unsafe and do you guys have a union or something similar, and please I am not trying to make this political, just curious. I really respect you guys for the hard work you do and nomadic life style you live and just want to know more. I am sure if I lived in your neck of the woods I would know more cause I would probably right there with you.
Thank You and work safe.

 

[Oldtimer]

On the whole, in the North East anyway, pensions are non-existant. Health insurance varies widely. Some have none, others have "full", though they likely pay a hefty weekly stipend towards it.
Protection from being "stiffed" is pretty much up to the individual; He needs to be smart enough to keep himself from getting stiffed. Some companies are better than others, same as any profession.

No unions here, though I am sure there are some mega-unions that would LOVE to get the dues.

 

[Slamm]

I am a structural Ironworker from New York and stumbled on this site after I got into chainsaws and cutting my own firewood. Being I work in a dangerous field like you guys, I am always fascinated by other dangerous jobs such as yours and feel a sort of kinship after several close calls (have been to my share of funerals), but my question is about salary and your future, like what kind of pension and health insurance, and what kind of protection you have from company's trying to stiff you and work unsafe and do you guys have a union or something similar, and please I am not trying to make this political, just curious. I really respect you guys for the hard work you do and nomadic life style you live and just want to know more. I am sure if I lived in your neck of the woods I would know more cause I would probably right there with you.
Thank You and work safe.

Loggers are usually self employed and abhor unions, there isn't any pension or health insurance and you work as safe as you want to, or know how. If you are smart and a good business man you make it and if not you are fed to the wolves, there isn't any safety net for the businesses, and the biggest safety net for the "worker" is his own brain.

That I know of there isn't any union's in the general logging world. For one there isn't enough profit in logging for unions to step in and pull their typical BS and their be enough money left over or jobs still to be had for the business to make any money. In loggin you take care of yourself, you don't need some union to wipe your butt for you. The work and the men you work around are allowed to weed out the non-workers and the dumb, and thank God, there isn't a union to stop that. If you don't pull your weight, you will be chewed up and spit out of the industry. Get use to verbal abuse if you screw up, get use to physical abuse if you really screw up, LOL. There isn't any room for some "network" of good ole'boys to save someone that either doesn't work or is dangerous to work around, to help him to keep his job. Its truly the last line of work or industry of its kind, no other can compare.

If you are speaking of an individual job like a timber cutter or faller, around the midwest get paid anywhere from $20-30 per 1000 board feet cut, topped and sometimes bucked up after its pulled out. Its not too uncommon to cut around 10,000 board feet per day (thats just a good honest day) $200-300 per day, but there are obviously good days and bad days and in logging you will quickly learn to live within the averages or starve. Every job there is startup, then you cruise through the middle and then there is clean up at the end, this plays into the averages.

A good skidder driver is probably around $15 per hour, I've paid daily too, anywhere from $100-200 per day for skidder drivers.

The truck drivers that I know that are hourly are in that $15-20 range.

There are rain days and mud days and machines broke down days which all effect that average. You learn to keep your bills paid in advance and know how to work other temp jobs or have other means for making money when you can't log. The "loggers", I see going down the drain are the ones that, thats the only thing they do ..... period, logging just isn't stable enough to only have one trick in your bag.

As to the danger, aspect I was recently in a class where we went over safety and the dangers and comparisons quite a bit, and I was shocked at the numbers. Logging, Commercial Pilots and Commercial Fisherman are the top three, annually from 1994-2010, and have the most deaths per year. Logging hands down had the most deaths per 100,000 therefore making it statistically the most dangerous job. If you averaged out all other jobs, they said that logging was 21 times (not percent) times more dangerous than that average. What that means is, its almost inconceivable for the average person to understand or fathom. How many people go to work and think about injury or death? few to none, of those that still do, multiply that times 21, LOL, simply amazing numbers there.

What I find very interesting is those are the numbers for "logging" which in that they include log truck driver, cutter and skidder operator. They do not ever break down the timber cutter by himself, but when you look at the percentage of deaths and injuries to those three in logging driver, cutter and skidder driver, the cutters were responsible for something like 75% of the deaths and injuries, which is astounding how dangerous that is, simply mindblowing, I'm not sure that I want to know how many times higher the death and injury rate is for a timber cutter alone, LOL.

The one thing I find amazing about this is how common it can be for some to walk that close to death and think its fine or normal or a great life, yet thats how it is for those in logging, its just that common, daily even, and hourly at times.

I know, I personally kept track of what I thought was my personal averages when cutting timber, and I had always figured that in normal timber without any disease or other obvious perils, that 1 in every 50 trees was trying to kill me back, LOL. That is basically 1 day's work, so everyday, I had to run for my life or really, really use my brain to kept from being a statistic, or not get to see my kids that night. I'm not sure how that stacks up against other cutter's statistics, but that what I sort of calculated it was for me and a few of my better cutters, its worse the less experience my cutters have.

I cut and skid with two other workers in some very dangerous rotten timber and my cutter and I figured that the average of trees trying to kill you back, was down around 1 in 7 it is and was the most dangerous job we ever did (thank you Emerald Ash Bore, LOL) The tops of the trees were dead and they just came flying at you as many as three surrounding tops would fall for every tree dropped, the experience was truly mind blowing. Several times we three would just stop and say, "What the F^^^!!!!, this is bull$6it", but you just keep on going, because its a sickness, as no sane individual does this, for this pay, LOL.

That is my take on it for the Midwest area. The Pacific North West has bigger outfits on average, and things can be a little different in some of the categories, and one of them will chime in about that location's differences, but I'd say the above is reasonable close for Midwest to a large portion of the East Coast.

Sam

 

[2dogs]

Another thing to think about is Workers Comp. At one point my boss waying $83.00 per hundred. That is for every $100.00 he paid as payroll he had to pay $83.00 to our Workers Compenatation carrier. (So for each five hours a $20.00/hour works the boss paid an additional $83.00.)

 

[Ironworker]

Loggers are usually self employed and abhor unions, there isn't any pension or health insurance and you work as safe as you want to, or know how. If you are smart and a good business man you make it and if not you are fed to the wolves, there isn't any safety net for the businesses, and the biggest safety net for the "worker" is his own brain.

That I know of there isn't any union's in the general logging world. For one there isn't enough profit in logging for unions to step in and pull their typical BS and their be enough money left over or jobs still to be had for the business to make any money. In loggin you take care of yourself, you don't need some union to wipe your butt for you. The work and the men you work around are allowed to weed out the non-workers and the dumb, and thank God, there isn't a union to stop that. If you don't pull your weight, you will be chewed up and spit out of the industry. Get use to verbal abuse if you screw up, get use to physical abuse if you really screw up, LOL. There isn't any room for some "network" of good ole'boys to save someone that either doesn't work or is dangerous to work around, to help him to keep his job. Its truly the last line of work or industry of its kind, no other can compare.

If you are speaking of an individual job like a timber cutter or faller, around the midwest get paid anywhere from $20-30 per 1000 board feet cut, topped and sometimes bucked up after its pulled out. Its not too uncommon to cut around 10,000 board feet per day (thats just a good honest day) $200-300 per day, but there are obviously good days and bad days and in logging you will quickly learn to live within the averages or starve. Every job there is startup, then you cruise through the middle and then there is clean up at the end, this plays into the averages.

A good skidder driver is probably around $15 per hour, I've paid daily too, anywhere from $100-200 per day for skidder drivers.

The truck drivers that I know that are hourly are in that $15-20 range.

There are rain days and mud days and machines broke down days which all effect that average. You learn to keep your bills paid in advance and know how to work other temp jobs or have other means for making money when you can't log. The "loggers", I see going down the drain are the ones that, thats the only thing they do ..... period, logging just isn't stable enough to only have one trick in your bag.

As to the danger, aspect I was recently in a class where we went over safety and the dangers and comparisons quite a bit, and I was shocked at the numbers. Logging, Commercial Pilots and Commercial Fisherman are the top three, annually from 1994-2010, and have the most deaths per year. Logging hands down had the most deaths per 100,000 therefore making it statistically the most dangerous job. If you averaged out all other jobs, they said that logging was 21 times (not percent) times more dangerous than that average. What that means is, its almost inconceivable for the average person to understand or fathom. How many people go to work and think about injury or death? few to none, of those that still do, multiply that times 21, LOL, simply amazing numbers there.

What I find very interesting is those are the numbers for "logging" which in that they include log truck driver, cutter and skidder operator. They do not ever break down the timber cutter by himself, but when you look at the percentage of deaths and injuries to those three in logging driver, cutter and skidder driver, the cutters were responsible for something like 75% of the deaths and injuries, which is astounding how dangerous that is, simply mindblowing, I'm not sure that I want to know how many times higher the death and injury rate is for a timber cutter alone, LOL.

The one thing I find amazing about this is how common it can be for some to walk that close to death and think its fine or normal or a great life, yet thats how it is for those in logging, its just that common, daily even, and hourly at times.

I know, I personally kept track of what I thought was my personal averages when cutting timber, and I had always figured that in normal timber without any disease or other obvious perils, that 1 in every 50 trees was trying to kill me back, LOL. That is basically 1 day's work, so everyday, I had to run for my life or really, really use my brain to kept from being a statistic, or not get to see my kids that night. I'm not sure how that stacks up against other cutter's statistics, but that what I sort of calculated it was for me and a few of my better cutters, its worse the less experience my cutters have.

I cut and skid with two other workers in some very dangerous rotten timber and my cutter and I figured that the average of trees trying to kill you back, was down around 1 in 7 it is and was the most dangerous job we ever did (thank you Emerald Ash Bore, LOL) The tops of the trees were dead and they just came flying at you as many as three surrounding tops would fall for every tree dropped, the experience was truly mind blowing. Several times we three would just stop and say, "What the F^^^!!!!, this is bull$6it", but you just keep on going, because its a sickness, as no sane individual does this, for this pay, LOL.

That is my take on it for the Midwest area. The Pacific North West has bigger outfits on average, and things can be a little different in some of the categories, and one of them will chime in about that location's differences, but I'd say the above is reasonable close for Midwest to a large portion of the East Coast.

Sam

Thanks that was very informative and we do not change diapers or wipe butts I am in a dangerous trade and we have our own way of getting rid of slugs or stiffs if you can not carry your wieght or are dangerous you will be weeded out, like I said I do not want to get political with the union stuff we all have our opinions, I was just curious about your trade

 

[slowp]

When the big timber companies and mills had their own logging crews, those crews were union. Bad or good.
Then, in the 1980s, they started getting rid of their crews and contracted out the logging. The Spotted Owl business weeded out more logging companies, and even more have gone under in the last few years.

I'm not a logger, I retired last year from being a forester, but saw changes happen. Logging has gone mechanized, except on steep or wet ground. That means, logs are not touched by people much. Guys in machines do the work. This makes for less payments to workmen's comp and you don't have to worry about half the crew not showing up.

One of the bigger companies here, not union, and big only by today's standards, does offer health benefits. I was talking to their hooktender about this. They cut back some when the market crashed. The company has survived, I only saw their big yarder sitting by the shop today, so I would guess that they may have restored some of the benefits...maybe not. They also have the better workers working for them, because they keep folks working and have health benefits.

Don't know about them, but here in Warshington the State, wages for a rookie(I hate the term Greenhorn because of azmen) start at $16 to $19 an hour. That's setting chokers, west side, for a yarder operation. Wages go up, and hooktenders get around $28/hour. Fallers are usually contractors. They run about $50/hr.
Fallers supply their own equipment. The few fallers who work direct for the above mentioned company get paid less but get their fuel and ride plus health benefits included.

Our state upped the workman's comp where it is almost equal to the wages paid.

There aren't as many accidents as there used to be, but there is less going on. Our community got hit hard one year when one operation's entire landing crew was killed when an oncoming flatbed truck came over into their lane and hit them head on. The same year, 2 or 3 fallers were killed, and a truck driver was smashed when he tried to jump in his rolling off the landing truck. I think another kid was killed or seriously injured when a tail tree toppled over. That was a rough year and our state safety folks hit the area hard.

It used to be considered high pay work, but the wages have not changed since the 1980s.

Most operators bend over backwards to stay safe, and avoid causing insurance rates to go up more. That's why they are hesitant to hire rookies.

 

[plasticweld]

As a former Ironworker out of Local 33 in Rochester, Howdy It is impossible to mention the word Union and not make it political and not make waves. That being said today I own a non-union studwelding company and do my logging in between. The construction work is by far more nomadic than the logging. I work all over the state welding from Glens Falls to Buffalo on mostly buildings and a few bridges. Seldom am more than 50 miles from home when logging and most of the time around the 25 miles mark.

The work is very similar, one moment of day dreaming and cripple or kill you in either trade. One dope doing something stupid or not paying attention can end your career. It is that aspect that makes both the iron work and the logging part of my life and part of what I do and the reason for my passion for both

Today I am as anti union as you can be without going to jail, if we ever meet in person I would be glad to share the story; if you have been in the business for a long time you would be able to understand most of it. Today things have changed a lot from what they were 25 years ago still the unions and the logging trade will never ever be a good fit much of it having to do with the personalities of type of people that the logging industry attracts. My guess is that you could look long and hard and not find a group of more independent and strong willed people in any business that would compare to logging. I doubt that will ever change or there ever be a demand for someone to speak for us..Bob

 

[Humptulips]

There was a time when every logging company out here was union. There was a pension plan, health insurance, paid holidays and a raise every year.
I never saw any of the abuses so often attributed to unions. Life was good, maybe too good. The big companies started laying off their logging crews and contracting out. The crews got smaller because of mechanization and it was tougher to organize. The older gypos were union but as time went on the newer gypos were not. Especially after the timber supply dropped and everyone was fighting for a job the squeeze started. Before that the non-union gypos pretty much paid comparable wages to the union companies, sometimes more. The squeeze pretty much killed the last of the union companies.
Now we are non-union and there is no pension plan, health insurance, paid holidays and the wages are the same as they were 20 years ago.
Now logging is only for fools and those too old to change.
I was a member of International Woodworkers of America Local 3 2. The IWA no longer exists.

Kind of chaps my hide when I hear people run down the unions. Most never even belonged to one, for sure not the IWA. It used to be a lot better, not perfect.
I'm sure I'll get lambasted for this post but I liked the old days.

 

[Gologit]

Unions, in my part of the country, are a thing of the past. They never were very strong and I can't see where they had any lasting positive affect.

Strict work rules and rigid job classifications would never work in logging, at least as I know it.

It might be interesting though. If I was falling and my day was over and the side rod asked me to stop on the way out and fall a tree by the haul road that the trucks were hanging up on...I could just say NO! "Sorry boss, my time's up. Union won't let me do it unless you pay me extra...a bunch extra. And nobody else better fall it except a faller...work rules. See ya' tomorrow."

Or, if I was running shovel and the knot bumper didn't show up I could just sit there and let the logs pile up. "Sorry boss, running a saw isn't in my job description...better call the union hall and have 'em send out a warm body. I'll just sit here until one shows up. Well, no I can't do any greasing and filter changing while I'm down...that's the mechanic's job and they have a different union than I do. Jump on the Cat on start carving a new landing? Well, I could I guess, but Joe on the skidder has the bid on that machine and we'd have to get his permission for me to run it. Ask him... he's asleep in the skidder 'cause the landing is plugged 'cause the knot bumper didn't show up and I'm not allowed to work outside my job classification, and the whole damn show has come to a screeching halt and the logs aren't moving and the owner is losing money and will probably go broke, have a nervous breakdown, and blow up the union hall.
And, by the way...that last truck out hung up on that same damn tree next to the haul road...somebody ought to cut that thing."

 

[slowp]

sounds kind of like Forest Service rules....:eek2: Some of us did stuff anyway because the work wouldn't get done.:eek2: One just didn't mention doing it.

 

[Humptulips]

Unions, in my part of the country, are a thing of the past. They never were very strong and I can't see where they had any lasting positive affect.

Strict work rules and rigid job classifications would never work in logging, at least as I know it.

It might be interesting though. If I was falling and my day was over and the side rod asked me to stop on the way out and fall a tree by the haul road that the trucks were hanging up on...I could just say NO! "Sorry boss, my time's up. Union won't let me do it unless you pay me extra...a bunch extra. And nobody else better fall it except a faller...work rules. See ya' tomorrow."

Or, if I was running shovel and the knot bumper didn't show up I could just sit there and let the logs pile up. "Sorry boss, running a saw isn't in my job description...better call the union hall and have 'em send out a warm body. I'll just sit here until one shows up. Well, no I can't do any greasing and filter changing while I'm down...that's the mechanic's job and they have a different union than I do. Jump on the Cat on start carving a new landing? Well, I could I guess, but Joe on the skidder has the bid on that machine and we'd have to get his permission for me to run it. Ask him... he's asleep in the skidder 'cause the landing is plugged 'cause the knot bumper didn't show up and I'm not allowed to work outside my job classification, and the whole damn show has come to a screeching halt and the logs aren't moving and the owner is losing money and will probably go broke, have a nervous breakdown, and blow up the union hall.
And, by the way...that last truck out hung up on that same damn tree next to the haul road...somebody ought to cut that thing."

Never saw or heard of anything like that. There never were any job classifications except for a wage scale. Someone didn't show someone else filled in and they received pay commensurate with the job.
Only thing different then non-union gypos was you had someone to negotiate for wages and benefits. I almost forgot, remember travel time. Another thing that's gone.

The one thing that I wasn't 100% with was bumping.

 

[Slamm]

There was a time when every logging company out here was union. There was a pension plan, health insurance, paid holidays and a raise every year.
I never saw any of the abuses so often attributed to unions. Life was good, maybe too good.

I'd say thats the how the two unions that I worked for did it. The electricians union and the machinist union. I've worked in unions they do a great job of making non workers out of workers. You are rewarded for working slower ..... not faster, and apathy pretty much rules the day. I can't tell you how many times I heard, "Its not my job."

If you work hard, you don't need someone to back you up, your work will shine through. If you are a lazy, conniving slug you can keep your job through politic'n and the union will back you up.

Ever notice how the only people who think unions are so great or are those that are in them? Everyone else just works for a living. Unions skim the cream off the top that is needed to keep the ship afloat in bad times. Thats why they are the first to go bye, bye when the crap hits the fan, unless they get some sort of politicians support, which again, doesn't make up for real work and getting something done. Its a pyramid sceme that has been legalized. We have OSHA for work place safety, unions can go jump off a cliff for all I care.

Sam

 

[Gologit]

Never saw or heard of anything like that. There never were any job classifications except for a wage scale. Someone didn't show someone else filled in and they received pay commensurate with the job.
Only thing different then non-union gypos was you had someone to negotiate for wages and benefits. I almost forgot, remember travel time. Another thing that's gone.

The one thing that I wasn't 100% with was bumping.

I never saw or heard anything like that either...I was just thinking how it might be. The only union I was ever in was Teamsters and they were strict about work rules, job classifications and such.

I just thought it might be funny if a logging outfit had to work under the kind of restrictive regime that we did in Teamsters. Sorry if my sense of humor didn't come across.

I've never worked for a union logging outfit. Never saw the need to have anybody do my bargaining for me.

Looks like your union sold you out.

 

[Humptulips]

I never saw or heard anything like that either...I was just thinking how it might be. The only union I was ever in was Teamsters and they were strict about work rules, job classifications and such.

I just thought it might be funny if a logging outfit had to work under the kind of restrictive regime that we did in Teamsters. Sorry if my sense of humor didn't come across.

I've never worked for a union logging outfit. Never saw the need to have anybody do my bargaining for me.

Looks like your union sold you out.

Didn't sell anybody out. People just didn't realize what they would lose without the union. Kind of took it for granted because the gypos paid scale wages and they didn't think they needed it. Over time it just dissapeared from lack of participation. I know a lot of guys have told me they wish they still had the union but I think those times are gone.

Some seem to think the unions were some big entity like the mafia that you paid to keep your job. The IWA was loggers and we negotiated collectively. Now the big companies play one gypo against another and it's a race to the bottom. They have a million dollars worth of iron makeing payments on and they have to work. Often times the loser is the one that gets the job.

Your sense of humor was apparent. I just think a lot of people that never knew what it was like think that it really was like that and I thought to set the record straight.

 

[Gologit]

Now the big companies play one gypo against another and it's a race to the bottom. They have a million dollars worth of iron makeing payments on and they have to work. Often times the loser is the one that gets the job.

Yup...they're experts at figuring out just how much they can pay the logger to keep him coming back, but not paying him enough that he ever really gets ahead. They like to keep everybody a little hungry...and agreeable.

 

[RandyMac]

The only union outfit I worked for was LP and they wore the Company leash, got tugged to heel so often they were worthless. It was different story in LP's lumber and paper mills. PL was not union, but had the best wages and benefits, you did need to toe the company line. The little family based outfits often paid you part of the cut in addition to prevailing wages. There was often real money to be made, the work day was long, you commenced when it was light enough to see and quit after dark. You often did multiple jobs, fall and buck, tie chokers, maybe take a truck down the hill to finish off the day. Sometimes when away from home, I would camp on the landing, get a hundred a week for fire watch and security.

 

[Humptulips]

I only ever worked for one big company, Rayonier. The rest of the union outfits I worked for were under the TOC/IWA agreement. TOC is Timber Operators Council which was an umbrella group for the Gypos and some mid sized companies like Mayr Bros.
Rayonier was a little different, slower, more red tape to do things and kind of stuck in a rut about doing things. That all came from the company though not the union. The gypos were all the same union or non-union and paid pretty much the same at the time except non-union had no pension plan.
I always came home either sweaty or muddy union or not.

 

[Kapriel]

Unions, in my part of the country, are a thing of the past. They never were very strong and I can't see where they had any lasting positive affect.

Strict work rules and rigid job classifications would never work in logging, at least as I know it.

It might be interesting though. If I was falling and my day was over and the side rod asked me to stop on the way out and fall a tree by the haul road that the trucks were hanging up on...I could just say NO! "Sorry boss, my time's up. Union won't let me do it unless you pay me extra...a bunch extra. And nobody else better fall it except a faller...work rules. See ya' tomorrow."

Or, if I was running shovel and the knot bumper didn't show up I could just sit there and let the logs pile up. "Sorry boss, running a saw isn't in my job description...better call the union hall and have 'em send out a warm body. I'll just sit here until one shows up. Well, no I can't do any greasing and filter changing while I'm down...that's the mechanic's job and they have a different union than I do. Jump on the Cat on start carving a new landing? Well, I could I guess, but Joe on the skidder has the bid on that machine and we'd have to get his permission for me to run it. Ask him... he's asleep in the skidder 'cause the landing is plugged 'cause the knot bumper didn't show up and I'm not allowed to work outside my job classification, and the whole damn show has come to a screeching halt and the logs aren't moving and the owner is losing money and will probably go broke, have a nervous breakdown, and blow up the union hall.
And, by the way...that last truck out hung up on that same damn tree next to the haul road...somebody ought to cut that thing."

Excellent post ! You tell it like it is !

 

[Ironworker]

What are gypos? And I did not start this thread to get guys to start union bashing , just one working man wanting to know a little something about the logging industry, that simple.
Thanks

 

[slowp]

The guy packing the tires, often told me he was a poor ol' gypo logger. He was the owner/operator.

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