Ready to try square filing again

[user 122190]

I asked Buckin' Billy Ray about the angles and he said the 45/45/45 is wrong. He got that info from somebody and it doesn't work for him. He posted a video this morning showing his square filing and it was far from 45.

Now in my experience the 45/45/45 did look good but it did not cut any better then my round filing, hence why I asked and why I haven't tried it in about a year.

I'm now ready, and armed.

I asked the dealer to sell me a couple of drivers worth of Square Ground chain and he found a scrap piece and gave it to me. I now have a factory example and target piece to match.

 

[Mike Kunte]

Hey MR!

Although the pics are a bit fuzzy, I get the idea. I really like the way your angles look. I've also fallen victim to the "you MUST use these angles, or THOSE angles" story, and the "corner-to-corner" myth. My chains never came out looking like they should. Some of the best info I've found on Madsen's website, and my favourite video on YT from Stihlfan Suisse - link below. (Although he also advocates the corner-to-corner" thing, which does not work for me - my angles are closer to 30 deg.)

His video shows exactly what part of the file should make contact with which part of the tooth, and it's very clear to me now. Even the Stihl "tips" video on square filing shows someone with a 45 degree jig attached to the bar, but he's ignoring the guide and filing at around 30 degrees. That helped me a lot also!

And OH! to practice!!!!

Here's the link:

He has a few other good videos showing square filing with the goofy file also.

Hope this helps.

Mike

 

[user 122190]

Yeah, the pictures are bad. I am wondering how to get a good measure on the factory angles. If I were to guess, it looks like 30 across the top plate, 30 under cuts the same and 5 to 10 down the side. I am tempted to have a chain made rather then re-profile and old and tired chain from the graveyard.

 

[Squareground3691]

Practice, practice, practice, you will achieve success!! Use ur weak more than ur dominant so u become efficient with both , Vallorbe seems to have the best double bevel file out there

 

[Squareground3691]

One thing to remember square ground chain is great in clean wood , dirty wood you will have a bad day stick to round file chain for that

 

[super3]

One thing to remember square ground chain is great in clean wood , dirty wood you will have a bad day stick to round file chain for that

Square has a far stronger working corner than round chisel.

 

[Harmon]

until it hits the dirt

 

[Squareground3691]

Radial cutting edge will last longer in dirty wood than a straight edge

 

[clint53]

I tried square filing with a double bevel file a couple months ago. It didn't cut as well as my round filing either.
I had watched several vids on the subject also.
I will try again.

 

[Squareground3691]

Make sure ur side plate is at least straight or 5 degrees back is better and little to no top beak 30/ 30 on ur angles for top and side work pretty good ,Practice, practice practice

 

[user 122190]

I tried square filing with a double bevel file a couple months ago. It didn't cut as well as my round filing either.
I had watched several vids on the subject also.
I will try again.

A year ago was my first attempt at square filing, and all I had was a bastard file. The difference was amazing. I mean unbelievably amazing. Then I bought the correct files and it wasn't anything better then my round filing.

The difference was my angles on the square filing were something drastically different then the 45/45/45 I was told "here" as being the correct angles. Since recently seeing Buckin Billy Ray, and picking up a few cutters of a factory ground chain, I know that the angles are NOT 45s -- rather something different.

My suggestion is to go to the dealer and get a few drivers worth of Square chain and KNOW what you should file and expect to have after you are done. YMMV.

 

[huskihl]

Not sure where the 45-45-45 came from originally. You can actually only get down about 30-35° on a jig without hitting the straps. If you file with a single bevel or grind down at a low enough angle you can get it to outlast round filed. But most file back at such a flat angle that the top plate is like a razor and it dulls almost instantly in hardwood

 

[Squareground3691]

Yep to steep of an angle will definitely dull out fast

 

[Philbert]

Not sure where the 45-45-45 came from originally.

Can anyone clearly describe these angles, and how to measure them? Are we describing final tooth angles, or file positions when sharpening? I can imagine a few different things:

Top plate angle :


Top plate bevel angle:


Side plate bevel angle; (similar to above)

File horizontal angle:


File rotation (relative to vertical): (see illustration above).

File angle (relative to guide bar)

Clearly, the position of the file will determine the angles of the cutters, but due to the compound angles involved, a 45° file angle in one position might yield a different angle in the sharpened cutter. So which angles are we discussing?

Thanks

Philbert

 

[huskihl]

Can anyone clearly describe these angles, and how to measure them? Are we describing final tooth angles, or file positions when sharpening? I can imagine a few different things:

Top plate angle :

View attachment 887949View attachment 887950
Top plate bevel angle:
View attachment 887952

Side plate bevel angle; (similar to above)

File horizontal angle:
View attachment 887953

File rotation (relative to vertical): (see illustration above).

File angle (relative to guide bar)

Clearly, the position of the file will determine the angles of the cutters, but due to the compound angles involved, a 45° file angle in one position might yield a different angle in the sharpened cutter. So which angles are we discussing?

Thanks

Philbert

45° file down
45° file back
45° file tilt. Or roll

The first isn’t possible, as measured by an old-school Oregon jig with the triangle shaped file holder

 

[Squareground3691]

There’s no way that you can accurately measuring the angles for the cutter from filing, only ground chain from the wheel ur using on the machines is pretty accurate . 30 - 35 degrees from horizontal for top plate and the same basically for side plate . You have to keep doing it until u find groove and stick with it

 

[Philbert]

45° file down
45° file back
45° file tilt. Or roll

So, these are the file position angles that I would measure, if I stuck one of these things on a double-bevel file?

There’s no way that you can accurately measuring the angles for the cutter from filing,

Could I place a double bevel file in a finished cutter and measure the angles with a protractor, as above, and used a standard protractor for the top plate angle?

Thanks!

Philbert

 

[huskihl]

So, these are the file position angles that I would measure, if I stuck one of these things on a double-bevel file?

Yes

Could I place a double bevel file in a finished cutter and measure the angles with a protractor, as above, and used a standard protractor for the top plate angle?

I’m not certain if you’ll get the correct angle readings like that. You’d get an average of 2 or 3 angles I think.

 

[huskihl]

There’s no way that you can accurately measuring the angles for the cutter from filing, only ground chain from the wheel ur using on the machines is pretty accurate . 30 - 35 degrees from horizontal for top plate and the same basically for side plate . You have to keep doing it until u find groove and stick with it

You can with a filing jig. You angle it to whatever degree you want and tighten the nut

 

[Philbert]

Note: Several of the photos / illustrations I attached to my posts above 'disappeared'. I replaced them, and hope they stay there(!) I hope this did not make them confusing to read.

Philbert