reason 57 why i hate auto lock biners

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kf_tree

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i've been using that funky dmm swivel auto lock biner as my rope snap. i'd rate the swivel as neutral, no advantage or disadvantage.

while i was tied in and going out on the side of a limb, my lanyard ended up inside the snap. so the presure of the lanyard across the gate some how opened it. i guess the same thing could have happened with a screw gate, but i've seen a few bad things happen with auto locks so why are they the appoved biner for tree work?
 
I've had an autolock open on me as well, and it was my only tie in at the time..not good. I was a little bit annoyed, because I had followed the official safety guidance and thrown away my screwgates in favour of 3 way lockers. I'd never had a screwgate open unintentionally.

They can fail to lock if they become dirty or worn, but there's been a few cases where they've just opened, and no-one knows exactly why. I think it's more likely to happen when you're struggling through denser material. I did ask the question why screw gates aren't recommended. It seems that someone behind a desk at the HSE has done the calculations and has come to the conclusion that we are more likely to forget to screw up our screw gates than have a 3 way locker open up. That sort of implies that they think we're too stupid to look after ourselves, so they have to do it for us. Not sure if I agree, we should be allowed to use whatever suits our working style, within reason.
 
Acer, it's funny that you think screw locks are ok if because you are smart enough to look after your gear, yet you yourself have had an autolock open up.
So if only stupid people would have a screw lock open up, and autolocks are much less likely to open up, that must make you really stupid! :eek:
Since we know that's not the case, there must be other reasons to mandate biners that are less likely to open. I suspect that industry folks compiled death and injury statistics and found that lives could be saved by getting these things off our belts. Without the advantage of statistics, guys like you and I might not know better.
 
Dag nab it Mike! Acer isn't saying HE was stupid he is pointing out that the desk jockey may have been WRONG in his assessment! I to have concluded that the ONLY security issue with screw gates is failure to manually lock them. IF they are screwed shut they are very secure. Knowing how easy it is to get careless I bought Triplelock Autolocks. I've had no problems other than them being hard to operate(I'm using Kong "grenade gates")
Ken -were you using a tri acting auto lock now instead of your old quarterturn twistlocks?
 
Originally posted by Stumper
I to have concluded that the ONLY security issue with screw gates is failure to manually lock them. IF they are screwed shut they are very secure.

Wrong.
Screw locks can be spun open by a passing rope. They can also work their way open in the course of normal tree work. Forgeting to close them is another way they fail. Screw locks are possilbly slightly less secure than non-locking biners, imo, because they give a false sense of security.
I know Acer isn't stupid, but in this case both he and you can learn from the "desk jockey".
 
I have had a DMM biner of the style in question open in a tree also. It was clipped into one of the front attatchment points on my versatile right side up and gate facing away from me. I rappelled down a bit a the gate bumped into a stub and rolled it and pushed it up. I moved away from the stub and it closed again.

I think that the kong grenades and petzl triacts are less likely to be opened in this manner or as kf_tree had happen as they don't have the high friction knurling on the gate that stuff can rub against.

Also a biner can only be opened like this if it is held rigid ie loaded in which case it is highly unlikely that the gate could be held open and rope or whatever come unclipped.

As for the screwgates I used to use one on the end of my saw lanyard until it fell twice...then i went to a petzl ball lock.

But there are many many different screwlocks, some with gaskets that keep the gate screwed tightly which are a great improvement.

I agree with mike in that autolock whether of ball lock or triact or locksafe etc are much safer on the whole than any screwgate, if for no other reason than the lock themselves, all you need to do is check them. Not to mention the convenience, would anyone consider using a screwgate on their lanyard as many do with autolocks?

Autolocks over screwgates is clearly progressive, an advancement in safety rather than a step back as returning to screwgates would be.
 
Okay Mike, It is a matter of application. The only security issue I see with screwgates as an end connection for my climbing line is a possible failure to lock them. I don't have ropes running in my saddle biners. It takes multiple turns to loosen the lock. Part of my standard methodology involves frequent checks on all attachments. I never had a loose screwlock. Tom D convinced me to switch to triple locking Autolocks over a year ago. I DO think that they are better security wise-- on the other hand they are more difficult to unclip even when I want to. We are playing a game of averages-seatbelts save lives but now and then they trap somene resulting in death. Don Blair wrote something to the effect that he wondered how long it would be before a climber died as a result of having difficulty clipping in his multiple lock snap. That is a fair question. Does that mean that triple locks are a bad idea? No! but it is all a series of tradeoffs-swapping speed for redundancy. I concede that on biners that have ropes running in them the screwgate is inferior-on termination connections I'm not so certain-they ARE definitely better than 1/4 turn Twistlocks.-which are better than non lockers. But then again two non-locking 'biners reversed and opposed is pretty bomb proof!
 
For me, a single load on sling SpinLocks might go screwed up tight, i only use them in rigging. Really much more than that (remote, multi-use pulley) i place them spin down tight. Always seemed to make sense to me! Generally i take a lead from Mountaineering /Rescue, and in such situations place 2 in parallel position (wider 2 across, not longer) , opposing gates, both screwing down. In this way i think that 2 -6k's are better than 1- 12K carabiner on a 5/8 etc. for such applications. This helps the rope take less of a bend, stronger doubled linking, and more secure in 1 move.
 
Gord,

When I was taught to clip snaps onto d's in my early climbing days, thirty years ago, I was told to always clip the gate towards the inside or away from any action. This is in the day of single locking snaps. No biners in tree work then. Keeping the gate inside gives some protection from movement and bumps.

If there is a concern about a connection opening, then changing to shackles with eye screws that can be wired shut is the next step.

After having a snap open I changed to Stubai steel screw gates. I had two of them unscrew on different occasions. The next itteration were Black Diamond Super Locks. I still have several of them that I use for rec climbing. I can double check them. Next came Kong grenade gates and Petzl ball locks. Now I'm changing all of my climbing biners over to ISC Mongoose because of the large end to spread climbing attachments.

Tom
 
I started out w/ petzl screw locking biners, but was quick too realize I needed auto locking biners. They feel much safer.
First I bought some Mongoose biners but thought they had too large of a diameter and that made it difficult to slide my tres cord around to the other side. I switched to a set of Petzl auto ball locking biners. Found those difficult to open but got used to them eventually.
A few weeks ago I put down 21 pines back to back and my Petzl's got all gummed up. Eventually the biner that I clip and unclip the most would not auto lock. I'm big on re-checking everything always, but you never know.:eek: Usually I do a pine or two here and there between other trees. That gives the sap time to wear off of my gear. This job was murder on my ropes too!!!

Anyway, I was thinking about pulling out the Mongoose biners again just to keep things interesting.

What do you guys use to clean sap off your carabiners if/when needed?

-Mike-
 
Or... You can rub a glob of waterless handcleaner all over them until it liquefies and dissolves the pitch then rinse in warm/hot water and dry them. . Vegetable oil will also cut the gunk but then you have to cut the oil with something (dishsoap will work) so it just adds steps. Nice to know though if you are out of other cleaners.
 
Originally posted by RockyJSquirrel
...Get some aerosol carb cleaner, squirt a little on the working mechanisms of your biner and work it in by opening and closing the biner several times....or a small squirt of WD-40....

I was taught and still agree that carabiners and petroleum based lubricants should not mix. Oils attract dirt and just lead to quicker failure in the future. You're best with just the air compressor.

I guess if you have a 'biner that is not getting cleaned from the compressor, then it'd be better to oil it and still be able to use it, then to just retire it. I'd still just not use the oil, though.

love
nick
 
from the omega site.

I've owned Omega 'biners for years and some of them are getting pretty old. Is there a life-span for carabiners? Should I retire them after a certain number of falls or years in service? And what's the best way to care for carabiners?

Jesse B.
Flagstaff, Arizona

Dear Jesse,

Good questions. For starters, carabiners aren't like milk ... no matter how long your Jake Jr. sits in a broken refrigerator, it will never taste curdled. So don't worry about expiration dates on anything but dairy products and condoms.

As for when to retire your 'biners: as a rule of thumb, when in doubt, throw it out. If you doubt even a good product, it will mess with your head while you're high up on a route. Better to just buy a new carabiner than to wonder. For a more objective determination, however, consider the following ... Look for deformations in the carabiner; is it out of its original shape due to cross-loading or excessive force applied? If so, throw it out. Check the gate operation. If you've cleaned it, lubed it and it still doesn't open or close as it's supposed to, it's time to retire it. Are there deep and obvious grooves in the barstock (big ones, not just superficial scrapes from bolt hangers or wired nuts)? Relegate it to use as a dog leash. Has the carabiner been subjected to excessive force through misuse (towed a car with it? If so, apply for your Darwin award and toss your carabiner)? Otherwise, it's probably safe to assume that your krab is good to go. Repeated falls on a carabiner really don't contribute to diminished strength.

It's good that you're asking how to care for your carabiners, Jesse. Most climbers treat their carabiners like a lot of guys treat their girfriends: ignore them, take them for granted, blatantly scope out newer and brighter ones and then wonder why they aren’t working out anymore. Hmm go ... figure. Truth is, carabiners need attention and care, just like people. And, while Omega Man can't help with relationship advice, I can tell you how to keep your krabs from biting you.

Start with frequent examination: look for burs, marks or deep scuffs that might catch or abrade your ropes and webbing. Take a very fine-grit sandpaper or abrasive cloth and smooth out any of those features you might find. Then work the gate back and forth to feel for any grime or dirt that might be caught up in the works. If the action isn't smooth and clean, it's time to clean up your carabiners. Soak them in warm, soapy water and scrub the spring, pusher and gate assembly with a retired toothbrush. Dry them completely and allow them to air dry for an hour or so. Then, shoot them with WD-40 or a silicone spray lubricant and shake off any excess. They ought to be good to go.

We've seen a rise in the use of waxy lubricants lately and highly recommend that you DO NOT use them on your carabiners. White Lighting (or any other paraffin-based lube) operates by coating the device with a thin layer of waxy material. In theory, it helps to reduce the amount of dirt and grime it'll pick up. While this may work great for bike chains (these lubes are sold in bike stores, mostly) and even camming units, they're not very effective on carabiners. With bike chains, there is enough power in the mechanism (the pedal stroke of the cyclist) to break through the waxy goo with each turn. However, with carabiners, there simply isn't that kind of spring tension to reliably return the gate to the notch as that waxy buildup occurs. If you’ve already used paraffin lubes on your biners, you may have to boil your krabs in water to completely melt out all that waxy material. After doing so, follow the procedures outlined above. Performed regularly, these steps should keep your carabiners operating well for years and years!

Happy climbing!
--Omega Man
 
Very good hints, but i like saving questionable carabiners, marking them with paint, and using in rough non critical apps like dragging etc.; other utiility services as not to place good carabiners in dirty/rough environments with no aeriel risk. Just to save the gooder'ones from such thangs and wear.

Orrrrrrr something like that!
 
Originally posted by kf_tree
.... Most climbers treat their carabiners like a lot of guys treat their girfriends: ignore them, take them for granted, blatantly scope out newer and brighter ones and then wonder why they aren’t working out anymore....


That's awesome! I'm going to share that with Karina, my carabiner....I mean girlfriend.

love
nick
 
For heavy pitch accumulation, something I know a great deal about, I pour an inch or so of paint thinner in a flat bottomed pan, and soak the biners overnight. A fine brass brush will then clean them up easily. A light coat on WD-40 is my choice...they don't get a chance to get clogged with dirt before they need the pitch removal treatment again anyway. I save the thinner to reuse, so no mess to get rid of.
 
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