Red Elm vs. Siberian Elm

[Wood Doctor]

So, I have a bunch of green elm that I am cutting up that was just blown down by storms. When cross cut, the ends are deep red as fire. The bark is scraggly and thick. Moisture content is high. I also cut some more last November, and today it splits very well--not stringy at all. That tree was huge.

Someone told me that when dry, both burn hotter than a $2 pistol. That has also been my experience. So, how can I tell whether it's Siberian or Red elm? Finally, should I really be concerned?

 

[hupte]

sounds like red elm, aka slippery elm. red elm smells like urine when you burn it. siberian elm has small leaves. thats about the only differences.

 

[Wood Doctor]

Hmmm... Never noticed the urine odor of any elm when burned dry. I just let the flies do their thing. Amazing how fast the flies drink those log ends dry. I root for them as they work. They ask for no pay--not even minimum wage. Here's an example of the elm that I am talking about:


That's a 32" bar on my Makita with a BBK. The log is only the first branch, not the trunk.

 

[zogger]

Hmmm... Never noticed the urine odor of any elm when burned dry. I just let the flies do their thing. Amazing how fast the flies drink those log ends dry. I root for them as they work. They ask for no pay--not even minimum wage. Here's an example of the elm that I am talking about:


That's a 32" bar on my Makita with a BBK. The log is only the first branch, not the trunk.

That's a bonafide *whopper* there. And good job with the makita! Those are impressive saws.

Hit us with an update once it is all done, how many cords from one tree.

 

[blades]

Never noticed any bad smell when burned -propery dried out. Green or still a fairly high moisture content yep then you have that odor. Oak and Black locust have very heavy scents when first cut and split as well, some do not like those scents either. That's some nice Btu's you have there, I'm drooling on my key board looking at the pic.

 

[Whitespider]

Your pictures are not of any Red (Slippery) Elm I've ever seen... I'm guessin' you have one of the Siberian Elm variants.
Where was this tree growing?? What sort of area??

Red (Slippery) Elm does not grow that big, 24 inch DBH would be a rare monster, over 30 inches would likely set records...
Red (Slippery) Elm has the thinnest bark of the "common" elms, and is not normally "scraggly", ...
Red (Slippery) Elm has a slimy, mucus-like inner bark...
Red (Slippery) Elm heartwood is not "deep read as fire", more like a subtle reddish-brown...
Red (Slippery) Elm is one of the slower-growing elms, it has relatively tight growth rings...
Red (Slippery) Elm does have a bit of moisture content to it, but not what I would describe as "high", certainly not as high as Red Oak...
Red (Slippery) Elm is not normally the type to "blow down", it really is some pretty tough stuff...

 

[Wood Doctor]

That's a bonafide *whopper* there. And good job with the makita! Those are impressive saws.

Hit us with an update once it is all done, how many cords from one tree.

Still cutting all the rounds and branches. I've had to noodle cut almost all of the big rounds into quarters. The moisture content is huge, but I figure it will dry by early October, especially if l split as soon as I can. Next week I plan to take pictures of the stack for the forum, but remember that the stack is two rows deep and a third is going to be required.

Meanwhile, I'll let Mother Nature help dry it. Butterflies are now moving in on the ends to lend a hand and they are doing a great job.

 

[Red Elm]

Everything Spidey said is dead on;
PLUS, if you look at the pic w the makita on the log, right in front of the saw you can see how deeply furrowed the bark is. That is a siberian elm trait,
AND siberian and red (slippery) can and do hybridize.

 

[mr.finn]

If that log in the pic is of the first branch that tree must have been a monster!! Have any pics of the whole tree, or trunk?

 

[Wood Doctor]

If that log in the pic is of the first branch that tree must have been a monster!! Have any pics of the whole tree, or trunk?

Unfortunately I do not. The tree was dropped by a different crew that hauled the monster to the site in 8' long chunks using a big John Deere front loader. They said they used a Stihl 088 pulling a 42" bar and chain to take it down and cut the heavy stuff. I counted 91 annular rings on it.

 

[Hedgerow]

Unfortunately I do not. The tree was dropped by a different crew that hauled the monster to the site in 8' long chunks using a big John Deere front loader. They said they used a Stihl 088 pulling a 42" bar and chain to take it down and cut the heavy stuff. I counted 91 annular rings on it.

Many American Elms were planted as City and Yard trees in your neck of the woods a hundred years ago..
When did they introduce the siberian Elms?
I've seen American Elms with the deep bark, grow to giant cottonwood sized trees around here. The one in my Avatar was a 50 incher... American Elm with rather dark heartwood when green..

 

[Whitespider]

Siberian Elm was first introduced to America 'round 1906-07 by the USDA.
It was widely planted as a shelter belt tree across the prairies during the 1930's Dust Bowl Days and after.
It was heavily promoted during the 1950's as a hedge substitute... and then later as a replacement for DED-killed elms.
It was a huge mistake... I girdle-kill every one I can.
*

 

[Hinerman]

Your pictures are not of any Red (Slippery) Elm I've ever seen... I'm guessin' you have one of the Siberian Elm variants.
Where was this tree growing?? What sort of area??

Red (Slippery) Elm does not grow that big, 24 inch DBH would be a rare monster, over 30 inches would likely set records...
Red (Slippery) Elm has the thinnest bark of the "common" elms, and is not normally "scraggly", ...
Red (Slippery) Elm has a slimy, mucus-like inner bark...
Red (Slippery) Elm heartwood is not "deep read as fire", more like a subtle reddish-brown...
Red (Slippery) Elm is one of the slower-growing elms, it has relatively tight growth rings...
Red (Slippery) Elm does have a bit of moisture content to it, but not what I would describe as "high", certainly not as high as Red Oak...
Red (Slippery) Elm is not normally the type to "blow down", it really is some pretty tough stuff...

Is that Red Elm in your picture? It looks like some stuff I got earlier this year. The guy told me it was elm. I don't know the differences in the species of elm.

 

[Whitespider]

Those pictures are green-cut Red (Slippery) Elm... it will lose a lot of color as it drys.
*

 

[Hedgerow]

Supposedly, the Siberian Elms don't get as large as the American Elms, but I think the only 100% way to tell them apart is the leaves... Siberian Elms have smaller leaves than either of the others.
I just took out 2 50 year old Siberian Elms for a neighbor. The only way I can be sure that's what they were, is he was the one that planted them 50 years ago...

 

[Hedgerow]

Those pictures are green-cut Red (Slippery) Elm... it will lose a lot of color as it drys.
*

It has a different grain than American Elm, and retains more of it's original weight as it dries also, If I'm not mistaken..
It's a more desirable firewood.. But the others are burnable too... Just not as many BTU's..

 

[Wood Doctor]

Hedgerow said. "Many American Elms were planted as City and Yard trees in your neck of the woods a hundred years ago..
When did they introduce the siberian Elms?
I've seen American Elms with the deep bark, grow to giant cottonwood sized trees around here. The one in my Avatar was a 50 incher... American Elm with rather dark heartwood when green."
--------------------
Hedge, I also have my doubts that what I just cut was Siberian elm. The species I cut seems to split rather easily when dried a few weeks and with no stringiness. Nice straight grain, similar to red elm. I have split really tough elm that was dry but still stringy, and I think that was Siberian elm, which burns hot and OK but is a bear to split. This seems to be American elm.

This tree was at least 91 years old and planted by the people who knew Father Flanagan who started Boys Town. I think that an American elm can live that long, but not many other species of elm can. This tree did. I am harvesting it as best as I can for heat. The management at Boys Town has told me that it was hit by lightning, so it had to come down. I'll post more pics of the stack as soon as I collect all of it. The flies are drying out the ends faster than the sunshine or the wind. I'm rooting them on. This is going to be fabulous firewood.

 

[Whitespider]

Siberian Elm splits easier than American Elm... Siberian Elm grows faster and is a softer, weaker wood, therefor it splits easier.
Siberian Elm can easily live to over 100 years... 91 annular rings is not unusual, I watched my daughter count 106 on a stump a few years ago.

Believe me, I cut boo-coo American Elm, your pictures are not of American Elm... the size tree you're talking about would be more like 150 years old if it was American Elm (they can live over 300 years). From what I can see in your pictures the growth rings are way too wide for American Elm and the color is way, way, way, too dark. American Elm is a "white" elm, but will sometimes have a dark center, less than a ¼ of the total (but not as dark as your wood is). Besides, American Elm is horrible stringy to split, especially green; the grain twists and locks to itself, sometimes it's more like tearing it open rather splitting it... no friggin' way American Elm can be described as, "seems to split rather easily when dried a few weeks and with no stringiness. Nice straight grain, similar to red elm." American Elm does not have straight grain... I've seen a single round swallow multiple splitting wedges.

I can't say with certainty that what you have is Siberian Elm (but I'm fairly confident)... but I can say with certainty it ain't American Elm or Red Elm.
*

 

[Whitespider]

Oh... and the bark is wrong for American Elm, but correct for Siberian Elm.
The bark of American Elm has alternating layers of brown and creamy white... it's the only Elm native t the Americas with that trait. Those creamy white layers would be easily noticeable in your pictures... and they flat ain't there.

*

 

[Red Elm]

This is going to be fabulous firewood.

If it is siberian, which I believe it to be, and you store it outside, you may very well come to regret the day they dumped it in your wood yard.