rigging or crane

[Marquis]

Hey gang, well, besides the tremendous flooding here in Northern Maine, things are coming along. Just want to know your opinions. I am going to remove a couple of LARGE white pine in a cemetary, so I know I have to either crane or rig the pieces down. Thing is, I want to sell the pine to the local mill so I've got to try to keep the sections at least 8'6". I am pretty sure that the rigging can handle the weight, but am worried about that initial shock on the rigging when the sections come down. Don't know if the ropes/rigging can handle it. So I am debating to get a crane. Any ideas? Probably 24" in dia on average. Thanks, be safe!

 

[(WLL)]

when in doubt crane em out!!

 

[kennertree]

Do you have any prior expirience working with cranes? When you choke off a log, come down a bit and do a snap cut, when the log comes off there is not much of a shock load when you have a good operator. How close can the crane get to the trees and how big of a crane are you working with?

 

[Marquis]

Yeah, that's what I am thinking, I was just trying to save a few bucks. Thanks!

 

[kennertree]

Sorry, I misunderstood the post. rigging down wood that big can be dangerous, its best to get a crane if possible.

 

[Marquis]

Yeah, I think I know what you mean about the snap cut, when the crane pulls on the piece, it should break off, kind of like what we used to do in the woods with the tops of the trees when the skidder would take off and pull. The crane I am looking to use can get up to 80' as far as I know. I will ask for an operator too. Probably safer that way.

 

[Marquis]

I like that quote, when in doubt, crane em out, ha! Hey, if you guys get a chance, check out the Bangor Daily News online, and look for flooding in Fort Kent, ME. Some pretty awesome pics! I currently have the lake at my porch, and doing some urban kyacking in the basement!!

 

[(WLL)]

:jawdrop:

Yeah, I think I know what you mean about the snap cut, when the crane pulls on the piece, it should break off, kind of like what we used to do in the woods with the tops of the trees when the skidder would take off and pull. The crane I am looking to use can get up to 80' as far as I know. I will ask for an operator too. Probably safer that way.

:jawdrop: :jawdrop: check out some good vids on here and youtube. allmark tree has some good close up vids with a helmet cam

 

[pdqdl]

I have a different opinion, having worked in a few cemetaries:

You need to assess whether your crane can get close enough. Cemetaries are notorious for being difficult to get through with a big truck, and the expense of messing up somebodies headstone will totally blow any profits you might have been counting on.

Even navigating through the grass can leave you with a turf repair that will exceed the wood value of the tree. Be careful, people get touchy about messing with their buried relatives. You'll be trimming the trees in that cemetary for free for the next five years if you crush some irreplacable headstone. It might be a better idea to abandon the wood value, lower chunks that you can control into a wheel barrow or log dolly, then roll it out of the area.

Cranes are rated in pounds of torque. All you need to do is scientifically guess the heaviest chunk you will need to lift, then measure the distance to the center of where the crane would be. Multiply the two, and see how close that comes to the actual rating of the crane. If it's very close, you had better get a bigger crane or cut the logs smaller.

Regarding cutting off logs and lifting them till they snap: Bad idea, in my very limited experience. Rig the log for lifting, make your cut flat enough that the log does not go anywhere. Set a plastic wedge under the log or ream the cut so that the log does not settle on your saw. Leave a nip cut on one side, then wedge it up on the side you are finishing and cut it off. No saw trapped, no sudden movements of multi-ton logs. Back away from the cut, then hand signal the crane to lift the log away.

[While he is lowering that log, take the extra strap you prudently brought with you up the tre and get it ready for the next lift. Cranes cost a bunch of money, better keep him busy!]

This does two things: it gives the climber greater safety, because he can move away from the log and be in control of his saw when the log is lifted. Sometimes those logs jump around when they are lifted off. It also reduces the probability of overloading the crane while breaking off a remnant of unknown strength. Most modern cranes come with on-board scales to evaluate the load as they begin the pick. Not much help if you still have it attached to the tree.

This is just a couple of thoughts. I haven't done a whole lot of crane jobs, and I will defer to the opinions of someone who knows better. I do know that I cut one log off, and the crane operator partly sqwooshed a small white pine because he thought the log I gave him was too heavy. (no scale in the truck)

 

[beowulf343]

Regarding cutting off logs and lifting them till they snap: Bad idea, in my very limited experience. Rig the log for lifting, make your cut flat enough that the log does not go anywhere. Set a plastic wedge under the log or ream the cut so that the log does not settle on your saw. Leave a nip cut on one side, then wedge it up on the side you are finishing and cut it off. No saw trapped, no sudden movements of multi-ton logs. Back away from the cut, then hand signal the crane to lift the log away.

What's so dangerous about a snap cut? I like them myself on crane jobs. You make the cut, put your saw away, move into a better position, and the crane snaps off the piece and takes it away. Takes some practice knowing how much to cut and how much to leave, but i haven't had a problem with a snap cut in many years. Depends on weather conditions though-snap cuts aren't great in high winds. I'm trying to visualize how you do it. It may work for stems but how about for horizontal pieces?

Anyway, back to the original question, if you can get a crane in, do it. Rigging pieces that size calls for a good climber and an excellent groundman. To slow the initial drop, you do know you can tie multiple lines onto the chunk, right? If you got another tree anywhere even near the pines, set up another block and line to use as a speed control. If you are just gonna free tip the chunks onto your block, make sure you keep your arms out of the way.

 

[pdqdl]

I was imagining that the horizontal branches would be faster & easier to handle with a speed line, lowering line, or just let them fall.

No doubt about big chunks being hard to lower safely. I have broken several bull ropes with wrong technique, too much weight, etc. So far, I got lucky and didn't smash anything worse than a wood fence or a rock wall.

 

[beowulf343]

I was imagining that the horizontal branches would be faster & easier to handle with a speed line, lowering line, or just let them fall.

Yeah, but i wasn't talking about these white pines. What about a silver maple where everything has to be picked? What's your technique?

 

[pdqdl]

I have never needed a crane for one yet. I always have just done them the good old fashioned way. Maybe I've been lucky. More likely: I'm too cheap to hire an expensive toy, so my bids seldom include a crane.

I even have a small crane of my own (12,000 lb knuckleboom, 35' vertical reach), but I almost never use it to lower logs.

 

[weenieroaster]

Lots of crane work here. If you do use one, best to speak with the operator and get clear on the cutting plan. Some operators will yank off a chunk like they are manning a rocket launcher, others are smooth and delicate. I much prefer the latter.

 

[pdqdl]

Japan tree work

Lots of crane work here. If you do use one, best to speak with the operator and get clear on the cutting plan. Some operators will yank off a chunk like they are manning a rocket launcher, others are smooth and delicate. I much prefer the latter.

My [uneducated] impression here in the U.S. is that everything is real crowded in Japan. Are there still very many wood and paper houses? I'll bet a crane would really be necessary over a cluster of tight packed, fragile houses.

How big are the trees?

 

[weenieroaster]

Crowded or open spaces, depends on the location. Big cities=crowded. Still lots of rural areas, however. No giant Sequoias, but we have big trees. Fewer all the time :greenchainsaw:

 

[custom8726]

Lots of crane work here. If you do use one, best to speak with the operator and get clear on the cutting plan. Some operators will yank off a chunk like they are manning a rocket launcher, others are smooth and delicate. I much prefer the latter.

Well stated, A good operator is just as important as a good climber when doing technical take downs. I personally do not like snap cuts when working with a crane, but if you are not familiar with crane work or is your operator,, it is not a bad option. The scale does alot of good with a knowledgable operator even if the operator does not no the exact weight of the pick, through experience he can make a educated guess on the weight of the pick and then tension the line accordingly so you get a nice smooth pick. VS a operator putting to much stress on the pick and having it pop up when cut making a dangerouse situation for the climber and shocking the crane. Most people that think crane rentals are over priced have never worked with one, a good operator and crane can make a 6hr technical take down a 1 1/2 job with alot happier ground guys. So figure what your time is worth and figure the crane into that estimate and more often then not its more cost effective to get in and out of a job so you can get to the next one then to spend all day free climbing. JMHO.

 

[weenieroaster]

Good point about the weight factor, and how much tension to keep on the cable. Tree work for crane operators is a different ball game, than just working at a construction site. Best to find one who is experienced at it, and who doesn't answer his cell phone while you are cutting.

Even with a crane hookup, a saw can get hung up in the cut, and it may not be so easy to free it, especially if the boom is way extended and the lifting capacity reduced. Obviously it depends on the situation, but if it is a large diameter you are removing, by much opening up the sides with straight and angle cuts, much like a face cut, but on one, two, three, or four sides, so that the crane can pull it over in any direction as the activity progresses, then cutting it off in the center, it can be a useful approach. You can nip away at it if need be. Sometimes with large limbs attached, where there is the likelihood of twisting, we go so far as cutting the thing off much like sharpening a pencil. You can often tell what the upper part is going to do before freeing it up, and cut and get your azz out of the way accordingly. The operator can good determine the weight that way too, as more and more of it gets progressively transfered to him, and less to the tree attachment point. It is slower for sure, but not too many stopwatches come out when doing heavy weight removals.

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

by much opening up the sides with straight and angle cuts, much like a face cut, but on one, two, three, or four sides, so that the crane can pull it over in any direction as the activity progresses, then cutting it off in the center, it can be a useful approach.

That is new to me. Too much work.

I prefer hybridizing a notch and snap cut, so that the crane can lift the piece into the hinge, but the long fibers are severed. It is only lateral fiber connection (rays and whatnot) for holding wood. My rule of thumb here is to go just far enough under the notch to hold the wood as if you were going to have a two man pull rope chuck it off.

Rock the crane and the OE may pack up his marbles and leave you hanging.

Bringing a rep from the crane company is allways a good idea. You may find with extension and angle of the boom that you may not be able to pick the load you want.

When it goes right, cranes make it look easy. One thing goes wrong, and they can break the budget. If you can get it in there, you may want to offer "while we are here..."

 

[squad143]

I've never used a crane for removals but with the lengths/diameter you are talking about, with at least 1,000 lbs. shockloading my rigging lines, I would want to go with a crane. However, consider how much $$ are you going to get from the mill compared to how much the crane will cost you.

pdqdl's point about turf repairs and such should also be taken into consideration as well