Rigging question/advice?

[Frans]

We rigged out a Bay tree the other day.
Maybe 180' tall growing next to a house with the deck built around it. We had to rig it out using a speed line.
What was difficult was raising the trunk wood up to the speed line and then allowing the chunks to travel down the speed line to the landing zone. When we got to the lower part of the trunk we had to lift the chunks up and out through the deck and then up to the speed line. Each chunk weighed alot- to heavy to manually lift up out of the deck hole and carry to the edge of the deck and throw off the edge.
I rigged up a prussik so we could raise up the chunks to the speed line, then allow the chunks to go down the speed line.
What happened was sometimes the prussik (5/8" made by Nick) would not "set" itself. As the speed line was out of reach by us we could not touch it to get it to set.
What I would like to know is what do other climbers do in this situation.
Is there on the market a one way block? One that could take shock loading?
Trunk was at least 5'-6' thick at the base and each chunk 100lb-200lbs.
Please excuse my primitive drawing-
Frans

 

[Frans]

The Traxions are too weak for this application.
Shock loading big wood results in weights exceeding the load limits of this device.
Picture this job I did for example:
Dropping those bay limbs into the speed line, each limb about 500' min. shock loading (no way to lessen the shocking cause then hit the deck/roof etc. ) then the trunk wood is even heavier than the branches.
I think we as an industry could use a device that could handle this. Kinda like the ISC blocks (which I use aside from my Hobbs block) which are one way ratcheting but will grip the rope and not allow it to slip back down.
We take down alot of big wood and run into this situation all the time.
The real trouble came when we tried to attach the load to the load line AND then let it down the speed line. If we winched it up and then lowered it a bit, then winched it up, and then lowered it a bit it would STILL work it's way down too low and hit the rail of the deck.
Am I missing something here? Are all the climbers doing something that I've missed in this situation? Seems unlikely that no one else but me has been in this situation. I know that on the East Coast for example that there are many huge trees with broad spreading crowns... over houses.
Any other ideas?
Frans

 

[jmchristopher]

?!!! Yikes!!!

180 feet tall!
5 to 6 foot diameter chunks!
each chunk 100 to 200 pounds?
Something doesn't jive here.
I'm not one of your super techy hardware or rigging gurus, but it seems like the weights, even for the branches are way too low.
Having gotten all that out of my system, if it's really only a couple hundred pounds your're trying to raise, can't you do the lifting by way of the speed line? Lower it and raise it with some sort of serious mechanical assist?

 

[treeman82]

I am not too well versed on speed lining, however this is my take on things. Could you raise the wood up by picking up and letting out slack in the speed line? Some form of winch down by where you are set up should do the trick just fine. Also, like that you are relying on a machine to do the lifting instead of yourself.

 

[Tom Dunlap]

Any kind of mechanical devcie would be a wrong choice there. The possibility of over laoding and tearing up ropes is too high.

You've got the right idea. Did you use a Prussik minding pulley? If you use a pulley with round cheek plates the p'k will slip. One time I needed to lift some wood that was too heavy for my PMP. I took a piece of PVC tubing to act as a spacer between the pulley and the Klemheist. YOu might even be able to use a big, thick washer, chain link, shackle or biner.

Here are some other ideas:

Use a double-whip tackle to lift the chunk out of the hole.

Use a different friction hitch. I fing that Klemheist works better in a sling or a VT/MT with an eye-eye.

Check this site out, there might be some ideas:

http://www.osha.gov/SLTC/etools/logging/manual/yarding/yarding.html

 

[Tom Dunlap]

Here's a big cypres near Baton Rouge. The FL tree and it are very close in points

 

[MasterBlaster]

What is that in your hand, Tom... lunch?

 

[Frans]

As usual I was not very clear.
The butt end of the trunk (being bigger) weighed the most. Hence the weight I quoted 100-200 lbs. ( we cut real small chunks. And that is real weight, not shock loading) I was cutting the leaders at about 30'-40' long, tieing on the balance and lowering down the speed line. In my picture you can see the great distance from the upper Redwood tree to the lower (willow) tree. (By the way that poor willow almost got yanked out of its roots. Might invigorate it's growth, who knows?)
As for the SL being dropped down to the work, The angle of the SL and the great distance between the two attachment points for it means that in order to drop it down the high point would rest on the roof/peak of the house- so could'nt do that. The GRCS is really the best tool for lowering and raising SL.
We needed to 'suck' those trunk pieces up out of the deck hole, then slide them down the speed line. We tensioned the SL with a massdam rope puller, and had the GRCS at the base of the Bay for raising the logs to the SL.
Thanks Tom I will try a Klimheist next time. The Prussik worked most of the time but a few times it did'nt 'grab' so I put a steel ring just above the prussik with a throw line attached. When the log was at the SL I pulled down on the throw line and 'set' the prussik. I like your idea of a PVC pipe to maintain the prussik. Sorta like pre-dressing the knot.
The fiddle block idea is good but real hard to take up all day long.
Seems like there should be a better way.
Frans

 

[Tom Dunlap]

Butch,

You, of all people, should know that's a cypress knee. You should have seen the turtle we kicked up when we were wading in.

 

[MasterBlaster]

Ha! I thought it was a neutra rat!

 

[Lumberjack]

Originally posted by Tom Dunlap
Butch,

You, of all people, should know that's a cypress knee. You should have seen the turtle we kicked up when we were wading in.

Did you find any leaches?

They are somewhat common over here, but mostly on the river and in the swamps (go figure).


Carl

 

[NickfromWI]

Frans, Were you doing a 3 wrap prussik or 2 wrap? And what size line were you attaching it to? I remember that that sling was just barely long enough for 3 wraps, otherwise I'd reccomend taking another wrap or two.

And I agree that the GRCS is best for tensioning the speedline!

love
nick

 

[Lumberjack]

Originally posted by Frans

I rigged up a prussik so we could raise up the chunks to the speed line, then allow the chunks to go down the speed line.
What happened was sometimes the prussik (5/8" made by Nick) would not "set" itself. As the speed line was out of reach by us we could not touch it to get it to set.
Frans

In your drawing, what size rope is the blue rope. With the prussik cord being 5/8 it should be at least 9/16" or perferably 3/4". That could be part of the problem.

On my MA I use a rounded sided pulley (CMI 4" double sheeve), and it tends the prusiks fine, but it never holds more than 400-600 pounds, depending on how motivated we are. A large fender washer would be a great add on if you were having problems.

Did you have problems with the pulley on the pink? rope moving back, as you tightened up? It would require more rope, but you could have the blue rope as a tag line for the pulley, and hang another pulley it (with a bottom becket). Then run a rope through it down to another pulley and back, so you would have a 2:1 advantage, and have a smaller prussik (cord size) on the bottom pulley, as it would only have to hold half the weight. With 2 guys, picking up 200 pound pieces shouldnt have been a problem.

Did you use the Power Puller as an anchor, or just to tighten. If it was used as an anchor, then you have (probably) overloaded it, because of extra loads induced on speed line anchors.

A traction or mini traction would be fine IMO if you were picking the pieces up, but not to dumping them on it.

Everyone is going to raise hell about the willow. You shoulda had a pretensioned back anchor, fearing that it was going to fail is an unacceptable risk. If it was to fail, then the 200 pound pieces are going to become a recking ball (at best), or fall on someone, more than likely killing them.

Carl

Carl

 

[Frans]

Re: Re: Rigging question/advice?

Originally posted by Lumberjack
In your drawing, what size rope is the blue rope. With the prussik cord being 5/8 it should be at least 9/16" or perferably 3/4". That could be part of the problem.

The SL is a 9/16" double braid. I have a 300' hank I use for (mainly) roping out Euc. limbs.

On my MA I use a rounded sided pulley (CMI 4" double sheeve), and it tends the prusiks fine, but it never holds more than 400-600 pounds, depending on how motivated we are. A large fender washer would be a great add on if you were having problems.

The pulley was just that. We used one of my ISC blocks for the initial 'dumping' of branches but had the CMI set up for pulling up the logs.

Did you have problems with the pulley on the pink? rope moving back, as you tightened up?
We used a completely seperate rope for bringing the pulley back up to the work (note shown in my diagram)

It would require more rope, but you could have the blue rope as a tag line for the pulley, and hang another pulley it (with a bottom becket). Then run a rope through it down to another pulley and back, so you would have a 2:1 advantage, and have a smaller prussik (cord size) on the bottom pulley, as it would only have to hold half the weight. With 2 guys, picking up 200 pound pieces shouldnt have been a problem.

Good Idea! I often overlook setting up 2:1 type set-ups. To be honest I get anxious about excessive set up times and just want to go back to old school and get the job done.

Did you use the Power Puller as an anchor, or just to tighten.

The power puller was just to tension that super real long speed line. It took alot of work to get all the bow out of that rope, let me tell you.
After it was tight I secured it with another prussik and took off the power puller.

A traction or mini traction would be fine IMO if you were picking the pieces up, but not to dumping them on it.
The Traxions seem cool but I seem to use mine really for pulling back my big shot pouch. It really just seems like it is good for (that) or pulling up gear into a tree. Kinda flimsey looking.

Everyone is going to raise hell about the willow. You shoulda had a pretensioned back anchor, fearing that it was going to fail is an unacceptable risk. If it was to fail, then the 200 pound pieces are going to become a recking ball (at best), or fall on someone, more than likely killing them.

Point well taken. Now that I think about it that is one point that would have been so easy to do and if something HAD happened it would have clearly illustrated my lack of IQ. The willow was the only tree big enough to take that end of the line but their was plenty of other trees that could have supported the pretensioned back anchor.


Raining real bad here in Northern CA today- just hanging around clearing out my drainage ditches to keep my driveway from washing out...
Frans

 

[Lumberjack]

I made a few bo bo's.

The blue line (that the prussik was acting on) should be at least 5/8" (based on prussik cord size) but with it would bite better on a 3/4". The pink (or red) SL could have been any size, providing it had enough tensile (3/8" Amsteel 20k rating, my new love).

Prussiks bite best when they are an 1/8-1/4" smaller (in diameter) than the line they are biting.

I misspelled "wrecking"


You misunderstood a coupla things I said, but its all good. Also you double posted the same thing (not bustin your balls tho, makes your post count higher!)

What size rope was the prussik on?

Carl

 

[Lumberjack]

Also, the redwood coulda/ shoulda been supported by a back anchor, so it wasn't fighting all that leverage, rather supporting the load directly. This is easily accomplished by running yet another rope down to another anchor and pretensioning it, like a slanted back anchor, just make sure it is inline (within reason)with the tree. It you were fearing the willow pulling out, then imagine what the redwood was fighting with the leverage from the SL loads.

Carl

 

[dbeck]

surprised noone mentioned crane use yet

 

[Lumberjack]

Talkin about those CHEAP cranes?


It would have to reach over a 3 story house, so it would be massive (50 ton or better IMO) with alot of stick. Or much much (prohibitaly) bigger if it had to reach the end of the SL.

Carl

 

[dbeck]

anyone used a helicopter? Or heard of anyone ever using one?

 

[Lumberjack]

Using a helicopter is for logging, not that great for precision tho. It is common in some areas, where ground opps are not practical but the wood is valuable.


Carl