Right or Wrong Technique?

[YUKON 659]

We had a job this weekend, bring 6 ash trees to the ground....no removal or clean up One of the trees was a "bean pole" about 10"-12" at the stump and about 30'-35 tall. Anyhow it had a severe lean (kinda like a bannana) toward the homeowners house and it also had trees on either side of it...the only place for it to go was back against the lean. We decided to pull it over. My son used a throw bag to set a pull line. We used a come-a-long anchored to a nearby tree and straighted the tree up. I used an open face notch and I left a pretty beefy hinge, and continued to pull the tree. The tree came over nice! It also stayed right on the stump with the hinge still intact. Back to the subject...was this the right or wrong technique?

Jeff

 

[dbeck]

I guess my answer is that whatever you are doing, you are basing it on proven experiences. Do not take chances if you don't know the outcome for sure.
Based on my experiences, when you do something like this, be sure you can pull the tree 'over center'. That is, if it is leaning toward the house, be sure to pull it directly against that lean. Anything to the sides satands a good chance of breaking the hinge premature.

 

[Stumper]

Not wrong-it worked! I've found that skinny, live stuff that can be shifted before you touch a saw to the wood can be forced pretty safely-just watch out for barberchairing and kickbacks. Be cautious when trying to force large trees against a lean-you can get into an unstable situation where you can't force it with the equipment you have and it isn't safe to change tactics.

 

[Lumberjack]

I am a new tree cutter, but I have used that method on several large trees. I have never used a come-a-long, but I have used winches, truck, tractor, block and tackle, and several men;and only have had 1 suprise.

Here is the outline on a few trees I have done.

Situation #1
Large Pine around 65' tall and 3' 6" at DBH. It had a lean towards a large oak in the woods were the top was going. I wanted to protect the oak. All the weight from the limbs were also on that side. I used a 9000 pound winch set the cable up around 35-40 foot preloaded the line, cut my notch and let it sail. It landed dead on missing the oak and bringing down a few trash trees. The cable off set the lean and the limbs, and the winch didn't run on the way down because it wouldn't be able to keep up anyway.

Situation #2
Same job larger pine (taller) and with a good lean toward the house. I climbed the tree about 2/3 up and set a 3/4 inch rope. I ran it down in the woods to a block anchored to a small (11/2') sycomore and ran the rope back to the truck. Cut my notch preloaded the line and let it go. It landed parallel to the other tree mentioned above, which is were I called it to go. It is luck unless you call it.

Situation #3
Pine leaning over house. Limbed all but the top because a bad spot. Set the line and had 4 guys pull (one was the home owner who said they could pull it no problem. I cut a smaller notch and started cutting on the backside. I stopped cutting as soon as the back of the but's kerf started closing and then told them to pull. They couldn't so I sent another 2 guys over there. They couldn't. So as you can imagine, I was getting a little emotional with the guys for not pulling it over. So I come out of the tree at a rappid place leaving my saw b/c there is nothing to tie it to and go pull. I sent it over and that was exciting. I assured the homeowner that the hindge was plenty thick (He wasen't as concered as I was) to hold the tree. Moral of that story, be conservative in your groundies strenth, they won't pull as hard as you when it is your butt.


I only use the winch if I can pull the tree against the lean till it is leaning the other way, that may not be right but it makes me feel better. One note on that, that increases the chances of "barber chairing so cut accordingly. The reason is that it is not as fastas a truck so it can't pull as it falls there is too much slack. With the truck I preload it and as I get to the hinge wood I tell the driver to go, but I tell them not to floor it because it could: break the rope (not likely but a chance), pull the truck back because of less traction effort or simply tear up the yard. I have found these methods highly effective.

On the come-a-long be sure that it has enough adjustablity to pull the tree back across the lean and not have it all the way together with the tree straight up or still leaning . Use trig functions to calc how much when you are at the house. I have a chart made for that very reason. One thing you can do if you are heavy enough it use the come-a-long before you cut the back and right before you get to the hinge tell your son to jump up and grab the rope to get it started and then get out of the way.


Hope I helped.


Carl

 

[geofore]

wondering

I'm wondering what you use to tie off to the other trees you use in this operation. I have used the 4" wide straps like the truckers use to tie loads down that are rated 12k. There is a local shop here that will sew them doubled over and loop the ends for a sling. This saves tearing the bark off the trees I use to tie off on. Very easy to wrap the sling around the tree and use a clevis in the loops as anchor to pull ropes to. The idea is to save the bark on the tree you anchor to.

 

[treeman82]

I had a rope come-a-long somewhere. Not sure where it is now. But when it comes to pulling things over it really works great. I think it is better than the cable come-a-longs because the rope come-a-long doesn't run out of rope to pull unless the tree is right down there with it. However with the cable, you run out pretty quick. Not to start the whole pulling schemiel over again, but didn't we agree that when pulling with a truck that you set the tension and then leave it?

 

[ORclimber]

Right technique IMHO.

Got to match the come-a-long to the job. The handles are the weak link on them, they are set to fail at a set load. It really sucks when your not done pulling and the handle folds over. The rope come-a-longs just quit pulling and the rope will slip when they are maxxed out.

 

[YUKON 659]

Geofore, I also use a strap to anchor with...works out good. As far as the rope come-a-long...I also gave it some thought but opted for a better quality brand (Lug-All) with a 30 foot cable.....I think Seems to work well for me.

Jeff

 

[TheTreeSpyder]

Sounds right to me, with proper flexability in hinge fibers, for they are making a bigger arc than usually. Usually in felling the leveraged load on the hinge gets greater and greater, as leveraged control of hinge also increases. This is different, for as the tree moves towards stump, leverged load decreases on hinge, but hinge is in a flexed position, tree must keep moving forward IMLHO(stalling and brittle woods, impingement in imperfect face can cause barber chair i think). i might try 3 men on a 3/1 at high leverage(or truck, or truck tigh, then sidewards leveraged 'sweating in' leg of line to truck), for more faster pull, depending on speed of wench. Depending on wieght, strength radius of movement and lean. Preferably braced down the back in LegOnLoad formation for extra torque, 2) to brace the back 'spine' and 3)reinforce high leverage chosen point where line hits tree.

This is a unique situation, whereby the fibers that where always tensioned will be now compressed and likewise for compressed fibers now are used in stretch positions as lean that commands all of this is reversed.

Make very clean, wide, non crossing face; as degree of competition and risk rises, the exercised habitual polishing and perfecting as smooth a hinge machine as possible bears out loudest. Good point to exercise, critiqueing under this pressure to carry s-kills forward easily to make better hinge machines everywhere.

i like controlled truck pulls (truck loaded for more positive grip, ground walked out), but have had some guys with radio playing in head so loud they couldn't hear part about not gunning it. i guarantee that line can break, even 5/8 ArboPlex. This force can even throw a non leaner (that you are trying to force fat slow hinge out of) backwards into house whatever.

A shape like that can 'Boink' around on it's spring shape on landing methinks; the trade off being that you can preload that spring before back cutting. So much so, that ya might not about have to pull while backcutting (but still do) because of the elasticity in the line, and the almost straightened tree curving back to shape; pushing tree into contracting line, IMLHO.

One of my 'argue-meants' for tapered hinge against side lean really sounds out here. With some side lean, definitely would leave thicker hinge on opposite side. IN this way, all efforts to pull tree against it's reverse lean go to that task, and are not 'distracted'/used for fighting side lean part of equation; as hinge shape now does this. IMLHO, hwatever force and leverage you can muster; it's first job is adjsuting direction before pushing/pulling. Let the self adjusting hinge fiber that has adjusted to the tree it's whole life and been manufactred because of the lean, handle the lean here too.

Because the hinge fiber flexes more than the usual 90 degress, hinge flexability is more important, dead or brittle woods, can make poor choices. Stumper wrote me of an interesting examination of 'skinniness' he might like to run down, for it can really fit here, especially as the trickiest part (getting from 11:30 to 1:30?) requires flexability and not leveraged strength in the hinge IMLHO. Also, consideration of center punching the face may be given here, if ya go witht he theory that the older (sometimes darker, drier looking) fibers are less flexable, so doing so would leave the only more flexable outer fibers. i think this partially undermines resistance/help against side lean. Because of expected larger radius of movement, a wider face here even more appreciated than usually to permit this.

Pic is of LegOnLoad lacing to show how to get more out of same line pull, as you try to maximize control. Also particurily in felling, this line position can allow higher leverage placement of line safely even into real flexable part of head sometimes, for even more leveraged pull and spring. It is best to brace the spine of the tree pushing it to goal with the line. And add extra torque from same pull of line, for more power at a critical time. It all adds up to more surer control with a wider SWL methinks. Also, as JP has pointed out, it makes for a quick and clean untie by feller, and pullout by crew. Fairly simple thing (also in resettable condition that running bowline) with just an extra length of line your using.



ORrrrrrrrrr something like that!
:alien:

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

I challenge your forces on the spar.

I modified your drawing and want you to answer for the question marks, in approximately how many pounds of force at each point, in the direction you drew, given 100 pounds at the line end.

See drawing.

 

[Lumberjack]

For truck pulls I use a 3/4" dacron rated to 19k. If I cannot see the truck driver to tell him when to go, I use cell phones to get me connected to him. He has a phone, and another guy by me has a phone, and I can tell him when to go without much "lag time." If they jerk the rope get on'm hard. That is my biggest thing, protecting the ropes, you gotta be able to trust them.


Carl

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

You guys are assuming no friction at the crotch, like there was a zero friction pulley there.

 

[TheTreeSpyder]

i feel that if the line was laced over my head, down my back and to my ankles, the bend would want to come out and push my head forward, as it also pulled up at my ankles. If my feet were glued to the ground, the ground would fight back and the pull at that point would prolly mediate btween pull of line and ground connection, actuall not straight out, but not directly up either. Inducing arc in something stiff.

Exact numbers i don't know, but tracing the path of force, and realizing that every stressed fiber, it's direction, numbers and relation to it's brethren of other connected fibers all count, whether in hinge wood fiber or our lines of synthetic fiber. IMLHO.

i have witnessed this principle in all these ways and more,t here is something there, i believe this is it; in all of it's permutations. i use to look at it as an ineffiecient 2/1 placing increased hinge pocket pressure. Now i beleive i wee it truer as this arhing/leveraging concept. These things must werk for me felling and rigging etc. to bare truth. That is all i have save for the mute testimony of the line, traveling more distance for the same effect, therefore must invoke leverage. The increased power leveraged from the lacing is there somehow, whether this is correct name to call it out by, i'm not 187% sure, but closer to than 6 mos. ago, as i have chased it all these years.

The friction reduces the pull to the final hitch point, thereby some of the effect, but not the same as choking a running bowline up top, or giving full wrap before snaking down spar.

Good question, but i really beleive the power is here for us to tap.

 

[geofore]

straps

The reason I asked was some weeks ago I went to spend a weekend with a buddy of mine and he wanted to take out a row of white ash damaged in a wind storm. I showed him how to sharpen his saws, tune them, set a throw line with a sling shot, set pulleys and use slings and clevis. We took out seven and used his pickup to pull them down then we went up on the hill and pulled down about 30 snags that could fall on his walking trail. He knows enough now to do the rest on his own without getting injured. I gave him one of my slings to keep. Made out pretty well, the neighbor saw us cutting and came to ask if I could do nine of his trees. Got a $ome extra work out of it and had fun doing it. He would have put a chain around his anchor trees and taken the bark off. Left my buddy to do all the clean up at his place, he uses firewood to heat his house most of the time. He is out looking for a log spliter, way too much to split by hand.

 

[TheTreeSpyder]

i really believe their is something common going on in all of the examples.

i have been watching, playing , trying to define and de-scribe/ share for quite some time; all i know fer'sure is it works better, braces better.

i've looked at it as an inefficient 2/1, but the leg from turn to hitch seems to matter (wouldn't in 2/1?), even beyond the amount of elasticity of that line and what ya can sweat out to the last drop. So, i kinda have 'evolved' full circle in my view, from leverage, to 2/1, to stored energy in the lenght of elastcity of the line, back to leverage, perhaps even some compound system, recieving complimenting pressure at 2 points. Think i'm pretty close, or at least closer than before; but i have witnessed the higher efficiency from given force, i have called on this in many ways and it has helped. i'm looking at it like holding a rake in your hands and left hand pushes left, right hand pushes right; the farther apart; the better the 'action'. i think somehow that pushing down on the top and pulling up from the bottom is kinda like that, and asks for arc, of something stiff. Plus it takes more rope for all that to happen the same distance as other lacings.

i also think, more pertinent to the original example, that trees with lean sit all of their weight on a gradually smaller percentage of the trunk with more lean. This smaller footprint of area to stand on per lean/ towards lean places more leverage of support to the lean, also; availing itself to more holding fiber,in leveraged positions too, to fight the lean that it is giving you more leveraged support of. All thru a natural adjusting system of supports, working to take the path of least resistance to the task at hand.

Orrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr something like that............

OK, guilty;..... deuce........
:alien: :alien:

 

[TheTreeSpyder]

Fair enough, but do ya think you could go easier on the new guys; .....i mean calling'em Mike and such.....

1st 3 paragraphs (of my previous post)are about questions of tourque existing, how, how it can help etc. commonly in all of the examples i drew. The 3rd paragraph outlines the different ways i've tried to name, focus on this force to understand it and how it can stand on my side or against me. Kinda in a full discloisure, lending; possibly clearing away different things for as far as my sight can see, for the next person to peek, and get further faster, then perhaps beyond, and so ti goes...... So these are the ways i have looked at all of this, and what i have layed aside and why, openly shared for the next mad scientist to run up to the tree lab and try!.

The final paragraph states that something at 30% lean, might only be sitting on10-18% (or something)of the 'stump' area (i think), in compressed fiber. The rest of the fibers across, hold against the pull of the lean and are strethced, therefore the tree does not sit on them. (A hinge will assume this same type of pattern, per lean, than the tree had.IMLHO)

The harder the lean, the less stump tree sits on, this allows closer pivot to fight lean, and gradually more and more left over fibers to stack increasing holding force and leverage in response to the lean. Helping you 2 ways. All self adjusting, all by itself. Understanding how they stand and grown, can show us how to use that power to fell, IMLHO. Then, those ground school lessons can be taken to the air (rigging, free falling) methinks.


Mainly i write because, in the original example i would not put in just a shallow face, i would bring the hinge deeper, to place that pivot of hinge as close to or almost behind opposite lean from fall- very strategic move, could be very well the defining factor between success and failure. As back lean now has less leverage, and fibers are flexed less when tree is moved forward (real good in less flexible fiber). That changes the whole mechanics, to more on your side, and am ashamed i missed it previously!!

i think this thread gets a 5.......

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

This was a fun thread:

http://www.arboristsite.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=3686

Spyder was pushing his theory way back then.
This thread also addresses the truck pull.

 

[TheTreeSpyder]

Rigging Lacing Choice Thread

i really believe lacing in one of the 'LegOnLoad' patterns greatly can increase leveraged force on your side at a cost of a few more feet of line. This force, as any other, can aid you in direction of the load, and availing more leveraged power to the hinge machine. This can make the hinge go faster/weaker or slower/stronger(like a transmission, lever, 10 speed etc.). Slow backcutting and/or leveraged draw(power and slow, like 3/1 pull takes more time, LegOnLoad takes more time/distance) sets the time element to slow, eliciting the slow/power balance from the hinge (in the previous sentence).

By forcing this more powerful hinge element, we have more leveraged control for support and direction of the load (tree). This is left over to play with once whatever forces for direction are used; IMLHO weight x speed might be all there is to determining force, but choosing a direction for that force is primary to the system; and takes force itself to achieve.

In rigging we can look for direction and support from the hinge and the line; working best as we give each leveraged gain from the force it is given, to help with task. All this effort, thought; might as well have a wide, clean face, to use all this over a larger sweep.

That can totally change the game sometimes; IMLHO, it has for me.

Orrrrrrrrrrr something like that!
:alien:

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

Originally posted by TheTreeSpyder
[Bi really believe lacing in one of the 'LegOnLoad' patterns greatly can increase leveraged force on your side at a cost of a few more feet of line.
:alien: [/B]

Here's where I am confused, and it's the basic principle driving your theory. How you tie off the end of the pull rope, doesnt affect loads, imo.

Does this configuration give a three to one?

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

Now this will give you two to one.