Root Crown problem

[masiman]

A neighbor asked be to take down a tree for them. When I came over to look at it I noticed the root crown problems. Anyone have any thoughts on this?

The tree is the one in the middle on image #1.

The exposed area is ~2-3" in depth and black and firm (images 2-4). With the winds we had earlier this week (50-60mph) the tree did fine.

In image #3, you can see bore holes in the bark just above the rot(?).

I plan to spur up it but I'll back off if the tree condition is dangerous. It looks to me like a problem that will get worse but is not yet dangerous.

 

[Slvrmple72]

Put your life line around one of the other two trees nearby prior to spiking up that way if the tree would fail it has less of a chance of taking you with it. Check for soundness. The fact that it survived the high winds is a good sign but at the same time it may have weakened already badly damaged heartwood. Do not see what the limb load looks like from the pictures but a good approach is to unburden it in a balanced and controlled way using the other trees nearby for rigging down any pieces that might damage property. I have seen large limbs upset the balance of other trees with trunk damage when dropped and bring the whole tree toppling over so always ere on the side of caution. You do not want to live next to an upset neighbor! Climb safe,cut safe, so you can do it all over again tomorrow:biggrinbounce2:

 

[clearance]

Put your life line around one of the other two trees nearby prior to spiking up that way if the tree would fail it has less of a chance of taking you with it. Check for soundness. The fact that it survived the high winds is a good sign but at the same time it may have weakened already badly damaged heartwood. Do not see what the limb load looks like from the pictures but a good approach is to unburden it in a balanced and controlled way using the other trees nearby for rigging down any pieces that might damage property. I have seen large limbs upset the balance of other trees with trunk damage when dropped and bring the whole tree toppling over so always ere on the side of caution. You do not want to live next to an upset neighbor! Climb safe,cut safe, so you can do it all over again tomorrow:biggrinbounce2:

Good post, all I can add is do not lower anything big at all, I would just hammer it down, who cares about the lawn. Climbers have been killed when they used the tree they were in for a spar and it failed beneath them.

 

[masiman]

Thanks for the insight

I did not think it was very much branch loading. It looked fairly even but I will take the branches in two cuts to lessen any imbalances. I'll have to think how to rig up lowering from the adjacent trees. I have never done that. I guess I would have to rig up a keeper/retriever line so that I can retrieve the bull line or do you just drop a throw line to the ground guy and pull it up? I would like to just hammer it down it but I know the HO will be happy if I minimize damage to their lawn. Also there is the deck and a fence that should not be in danger but I'm too new to this to be certain. Of course my health and well being will take precedence over anything else .

As for safety line in an adjacent tree. I did think of that. I also thought that doing that sounds great but if the tree goes down I figure I would end up safetied to the adjacent tree and fliplined to the failed tree, i.e. my lines attaching me to the standing tree and the failed tree, with me dangling between them. Not a pleasant thought but much better than the 50-60' drop with maybe a spar making a ground spike out of me lol.

I'll try to post some interesting pics when I get it down, should be in the next week or two.

Attached some pics of the top.

Thanks again for your insights.

PS Any ideas what the caused this? A long ago string trimmer?

 

[Tom Dunlap]

Be sure to use a mallet to sound the tree. If you're unsure what the right sound is practice on some cut logs before you climb. There is a noticeable tone difference between sound and unsound wood.

Can you use throwlines to set choked guy lines and anchor them to nearby trees or something secure? You could get a rope over a limb and out towards and anchor but not have the rope isolated. If so, spiral the rope around the trunk several times and tie it off to the butt of the tree. Use some sort of tensioning mechanism for the guys. Do not overtension the guyouts though. You don't want to yank the tree out of the ground.

If you decide that the tree can be climbed, be careful. We want to see some good pictures of how you wrecked out the tree. Be sure to get cross sections of the trunk to show the stump decay.

Use another tree/s for your TIP as was said. Keep your climbing rope snug.

Review the archives for the discussion of the break away lanyard. If the tree fails you are unlikely to want to ride it down.

Using a power pole saw in the tree is awkward but it can allow you to make bigger cuts from further away.

can you cover the deck with plywood and drop tiny pieces of the tree. I called that 'shredding' the tree. My groundies hated it because there were a million little pieces to pick up but sometimes rigging isn't a good idea.

Does the homeowner know what damaged the tree? Could be 'bucket blight' from excavation.

 

[masiman]

Be sure to use a mallet to sound the tree. If you're unsure what the right sound is practice on some cut logs before you climb. There is a noticeable tone difference between sound and unsound wood.

Can you use throwlines to set choked guy lines and anchor them to nearby trees or something secure? You could get a rope over a limb and out towards and anchor but not have the rope isolated. If so, spiral the rope around the trunk several times and tie it off to the butt of the tree. Use some sort of tensioning mechanism for the guys. Do not overtension the guyouts though. You don't want to yank the tree out of the ground.

If you decide that the tree can be climbed, be careful. We want to see some good pictures of how you wrecked out the tree. Be sure to get cross sections of the trunk to show the stump decay.

Use another tree/s for your TIP as was said. Keep your climbing rope snug.

Review the archives for the discussion of the break away lanyard. If the tree fails you are unlikely to want to ride it down.

Using a power pole saw in the tree is awkward but it can allow you to make bigger cuts from further away.

can you cover the deck with plywood and drop tiny pieces of the tree. I called that 'shredding' the tree. My groundies hated it because there were a million little pieces to pick up but sometimes rigging isn't a good idea.

Does the homeowner know what damaged the tree? Could be 'bucket blight' from excavation.

Thanks for the mallet tip, I had not heard that one yet.

Are you saying to lay out guys as a safety to support the tree? If so are you suggesting that I support against which way I think it would fail or providing 360deg. of support? I think there are enough trees around to guy from. I am not quite sure I understand what you are saying wrt to rope isolation and spiraling. I assume the spiraling would be around an adjacent tree. I can't quite picture exactly what you mean. I somewhat new to this but studying where ever I can (I played hookie today and went around the neighborhood to observe the 3 tree crews doing storm damage work). I do not have a tensioning device, I could only do it bodyweight tight.

I assume TIP stands for Tie In Point?

I have read about the break away lanyards but only in reference to saw lanyards. The search function here is not the greatest. At least I could not figure out how to search on phrases. I did not find much on breakaway lanyards but I did see some discussions saying that something like I am describing does not commercially exist or at least how to design something is very difficult because of the many variables.

It is going to be tough at the top. The trees are roughly the same height. Any TIP in another tree will be roughly the same height as me, creating a force trying to pull me away from the tree. I will need to ensure the lowering TIP will be out of the way of my safety line andy any guy lines.

No pole saw. If the pole saw looks like it would be a big help, I will beg, borrow or buy one.

Thanks for the idea of covering the deck. The HO will have more confidence seeing that kind of prep work.

I'll ask again if they can think of what may have caused the damage. They did not offer anything when I pointed it out to them. I am not sure how long they have lived there and could very likely not have been there when it did happen. Very reasonable that it could be from grading as the house is I think a late 80's, early 90's build. I think the tree is older than that.

 

[Tom Dunlap]

A plastic headed or dead-blow hammer are my favorites. But, in a pinch I've used a solid stick or the back of my handsaw for thumping. You can also use a small diameter drill to core the tree. Pay attention to how hard it is for the drill to feed in. Pay attention to the sawdust coming out of the drill bit. Spend some time learning what is 'normal' by coring some logs. drill into decayed spots and solid wood too.

The guys need to be layed out to support the whole tree. Ideally, three at 120 degrees apart. Do the best you can.

Sometimes it's hard to isolate the limb that you want to anchor to. Setting the rope with a running bowline is best. If not, I made a couple of very simple drawings to give you some ideas. The ropes in the drawings are different colors.

TIP does stands for Tie In Point.

Here is a very thorough discussion of break away lanyards:

http://tinyurl.com/3auwej

If the worst happens and you're anchored to another tree but the takedown tree falls you want to get off of it. This is really sketchy and might be reason enough not to climb the tree. I don't want to think about advising someone to use a procedure that could facilitate their injury or death. There has been a lot of discussion in the past about a break away lanyard. Don't derail this thread and bring up all of the old discussions, start a new thread. Stick to the topic at hand. First, take the snap or biner off the end of your lanyard. If the lanyard does need to break away you don't want a hunk of metal flying around to knock teeth out. Take some string that breaks at about 100-200# and tie it into a loop. Tie this loop, a girth hitch would work, there are other ways too, to the end of your rope where your snap/biner was. Clip a biner to your side d-ring. Clip the loop of rope to the biner. If things go bad the string loop will break and only the end of the rope will be whipping around. As you can see, this isn't a perfect setup. BUT...it's much better than being attached to a falling tree.

You might be able to tension the guys by having a couple of guys pull on them. If not, make a Z-drag or rope come along. You still want a little movement in the stem.

Do you have a bladed pole saw? Better than nothing.

 

[ATH]

When I looked at the pictures my first thought was: "Make sure you tell them that the builder/developer cost them a tree - the more homeowners that realize this, the more pressure they will put on builders to quit doing it!"

Then I saw your question as to what caused the rot. I'm betting this is a result of poor construction practices - It looks to me like it was probably a victim of fill dirt. The bark on the trunk is not designed to be underground (like the bark on the roots is). When they put fill dirt around the trunk to make everything nice and level (and to avoid hauling as much dirt off site) they are killing the tree. Problem is that the tree stays green for 5-10 years (or more for resilent trees like ash) so few people make the connection...

 

[treeseer]

mallets and drills are good to use, but simply digging out the rot and poking a long screwdriver in tells a better story.

Get a polesaw. My huayuche is 22' long with a stout blade and could lighten that top in a hurry. Far safer than a power pruner, sorry Tom.

Cause? From bark distortion it looks like a big root from an adjacent tree girdled this stem. This does not disprove the other, plausible theories.

You are right to be concerned. After a good check of the base, if you see it'll take more time to do safely do NOT hesitate to say more time means more money, or to refer the job to an outfit with a lift.

 

[masiman]

Thanks all for your replies. I will hold off on this one until next week. I'll do a smaller no-issue tree on their property tomorrow morning and talk with them more about this one.

I did poke with the screw driver and it was nicely firm. Before I climb I will drill. I'll get guy lines on it as best I can. I can't justify a come along or rope puller to the wife yet. A few more jobs and she will be willing. I'll try a z-drag. Something else I have not set up before. That was another good possibility about a girdling root. It may not be clear in picture #4 but I thought maybe there had been a second tree there that had been cut away some time ago. I could not see evidence of the second trunk or root system except for maybe a little deformation in the crown. I'll ask the HO if they have removed dirt or mulch from the base in the last few years. If dirt or mulch were the cause I think it would have had to been removed at least 2 years ago from the look of the crown.

The breakaway rope is a creative solution. Very similar to static line parachuting although I think that cord is 60#. I understand the danger of a rope system parting under tension. I will try to minimize the danger if I go with that set up.

All in all, what would really be best for me is if I could volunteer ground for someone with experience. Another reason for the hookie yesterday. Two crews did not impress me much. The third did but they were doing a fairly big job using a crane to get the tree off the house. No time for a groupie .

 

[treeseer]

dunno where in va you are; i'm in nc and know a few guys in your state. Why not post your location and maybe somebody close by can help you out, work a trade of some sort, whatever.. that is not a tree to be learning on.

 

[masiman]

dunno where in va you are; i'm in nc and know a few guys in your state. Why not post your location and maybe somebody close by can help you out, work a trade of some sort, whatever.. that is not a tree to be learning on.

I am in Springfield, Virginia.

 

[cntrybo2]

going back to just hammering it down... I think if you explained to your neighbor the dangers you are puting yourself in to save their lawn, i cant see them insisting on you doing a top-down job. I know i have had this issue in the past and when you lay all the cards on the table a little lawn work doesnt seem so bad to them. i would suggest doing this, there is no telling what just your added body and equipment weight will do to how that tree is standing!

As for not being comfortable with where the tree will land (i.e. scared of hitting the deck) just rope it off and take your time, find a good falling bed and put that thing to sleep. I am a firm believer in being methodical and taking your time and it will make situations like these turn our smoothly.

Does the tree have any odd leans or unusual twists to it that would make directional falling an issue?

 

[clearance]

going back to just hammering it down... I think if you explained to your neighbor the dangers you are puting yourself in to save their lawn, i cant see them insisting on you doing a top-down job. I know i have had this issue in the past and when you lay all the cards on the table a little lawn work doesnt seem so bad to them. i would suggest doing this, there is no telling what just your added body and equipment weight will do to how that tree is standing!

I say this for every tree, when there is just a lawn to damage that is, who gives a ----, certainly not me. If you risk your life to save a lawn, you are retarded.

 

[masiman]

TreeSeer wins with the girdling. HO said they had a tree removed on the one side when they first moved in ~10 years back.

This one will need to be climbed. The "best" drop line is toward the power lines (~40' away). All other routes lead to deck (~15') and house (another 10'), fence (20'), other trees. I measured it today and it is ~61' to top of spar, with about 10' above that in small branches. I took a few hits with a mallet and it sounded solid. I'll drill it the day before I climb it and chunk out what I need until I can safely drop it.

 

[masiman]

Got it down, no problems

I set up the tree on Saturday. The sounding and core drill did not indicate any rot. I could get the lowest branch with the throwbag (~50') so I started up with my flipline and safety line w/running bowline. It was my first time going that high with just spurs and no branches so I took that part slow. I decided not to guy the tree because I only had two anchor points with ~120dec of seperation and the tree was healthy from everything we tested. Everything else pretty much went the same. I rigged the larger branches down and let the smaller ones drop. I rigged the top but I should have done it differently. It looked a little branch heavy opposite where I wanted it to go but it was a pretty thin leader to get there. I also had reliable favorable winds that I thought could help it along the right way. I cut my face and then did the back cut. It was too thin for a wedge. The top sat back on the back cut but it stayed up with the holding wood. A predictable wind came and I got my saw out. Tension on the rigging didn't have the angle to pull it back. I was in good position to the side of both cuts so I was glad I had that part planned out. I went to work on the hinge with my saw and eventually the top came loose and went backwards. The worst thing that happened is that the rigging line down over my flip and safety. It wasn't pretty but I was not worried as I had my lines just above some good stubs. I just moved out of the way and let it slide down.

My thoughts are, I should have either gone up and taken a branch or two off that top or at least rigged a pull line. Lesson learned. I did not have a camera with me but the homeowner took a few shots of the stump. The tree was healthy, no rot. I'll post a shot if I get my promised copies.

 

[clearance]

Good for you, got 'er done. The only advice I can give is, if the stem is too small for a wedge, put in the backcut first, then the wedge, then the undercut, then pound the wedge.

 

[Magnum783]

I say this for every tree, when there is just a lawn to damage that is, who gives a ----, certainly not me. If you risk your life to save a lawn, you are retarded.

MY left arm is in a splint from my second surgery to repair the damage to my elbow from doing just that. Trying to save someone's lawn from a damaged tree. Man it is not worth it. Bid it high and call in a crane or sub it out to someone with a bucket or a crane. It is really not work it. I go the therapy three times a week and can't work for month you do the math.
Jared

 

[Magnum783]

sorry didn't get the bottom to see you had it down already congrats. Sorry to hear about the top though. Live and learn that is my motto you leanred from your mistakes that is the most important part.
Congrats.
Jared

 

[treejackyl]

I did not think it was very much branch loading. It looked fairly even but I will take the branches in two cuts to lessen any imbalances. I'll have to think how to rig up lowering from the adjacent trees. I have never done that. I guess I would have to rig up a keeper/retriever line so that I can retrieve the bull line or do you just drop a throw line to the ground guy and pull it up? I would like to just hammer it down it but I know the HO will be happy if I minimize damage to their lawn. Also there is the deck and a fence that should not be in danger but I'm too new to this to be certain. Of course my health and well being will take precedence over anything else .

As for safety line in an adjacent tree. I did think of that. I also thought that doing that sounds great but if the tree goes down I figure I would end up safetied to the adjacent tree and fliplined to the failed tree, i.e. my lines attaching me to the standing tree and the failed tree, with me dangling between them. Not a pleasant thought but much better than the 50-60' drop with maybe a spar making a ground spike out of me lol.

I'll try to post some interesting pics when I get it down, should be in the next week or two.

Attached some pics of the top.

Thanks again for your insights.

PS Any ideas what the caused this? A long ago string trimmer?[