Round filing 3/8 chain file prefrence 7/32 vs. 13/64 -Durabilty VS. Speed

[SierraWoodsman]

I have always sharpened 3/8 my chain using a standard 7/32 file for years, and checked with a "file-o-plate" when finished.
This has always been "good-enough" but I am not one to rest on his laurels. Last Christmas Bailey's had a fire sale on Preferred round files,
And I decided to give a box the 13/64 a try. From what I can tell trying my best to keep top plate and side plate angles the same is that
The 13/64 filed chain does seem to cut faster than the 7/32 filed chain...maybe 5-10% approx. Wondering if any of you guys have experimented and gotten similar results?
Also if you find that one seems to hold its edge longer than the other. I'm sold on the 13/64 (preferred) now as I have tried square filing with mixed results. It seems that as long as I've cleaned out my gullets properly and have all the cutters to the same length / height and set the rakers right the 13/64 cut @ very near the speed out of the box Oregon square! The only down side that I could foresee is that there is slightly less metal supporting the edge and that it could possibly deteriorate and become dull a little quicker. Unfortunately it cut so well I accidentally rocked it before it had more than a cord on the sharpening. I Filed a buddy's chain using the same 13/64 file/technique without telling him. After a short time he said that was the fastest cutting chain he has ever used. He has cut more wood than I ever dreamed of so there must be somthing to this.
Your experiences on the topic if you have any are appreciated.

 

[SawTroll]

13/64 with Stihl chain, 7/32 with most Oregon chain - just forget other brands!

Step down one size for the last 1/3 or !/4 of the chain.

 

[garyischofield]

been there/done that

Been making a living with a saw since 1974.It's all about the side plate hook and bevel to the top plate.You are right on the money as far as speed and lack of supporting edge.Because real world conditions involve all manner of abrasive /saw dulling conditions,I file differently depending on my expected conditions.A lot of dirt/frozen decayed leaves,(felling doubles/forked trees) I use less hook.Result less speed more long lasting edge. The chain will cut faster with more hook to a point,but you're dealing with diminishing returns.Gary

 

[craig71]

Been making a living with a saw since 1974.It's all about the side plate hook and bevel to the top plate.You are right on the money as far as speed and lack of supporting edge.Because real world conditions involve all manner of abrasive /saw dulling conditions,I file differently depending on my expected conditions.A lot of dirt/frozen decayed leaves,(felling doubles/forked trees) I use less hook.Result less speed more long lasting edge. The chain will cut faster with more hook to a point,but you're dealing with diminishing returns.Gary

Now thats what i'm taliking about!!!

 

[outdoortype]

Does the gullet or area under the top plate effect cutting performance that much? It seems like 7/32" cleans out the gullet area better than 13/64". But 13/64" gives a better hook.

 

[Slamm]

I had a cutter that wouldn't believe that a Stihl Semi-Chisel chain sharpened with a 13/64" file was faster than the traditional 7/32" file. Well we raced and in very hard hickory my worst finish was a tied and most of the time I beat him by a little .......... I was running a modded 441 and he was running a modded 660. The 13/64" file is faster than the 7/32" file, all else being the same.

I personally like to do the first filing with a 7/32" file to clean out the gullet, especially for longer bar lengths, then its 13/64" all the way until the teeth start to break off, because they are so small. If you do that and use a File O Plate for the rakers you will have a chain that is fast for its whole life ........ not just when the teeth are big.

Sam

 

[garyischofield]

gullet experience

To your answer your question about gullet area.Imho,,unless we are talking about race chains,the gullet is minimally important compared to the uniformity of cutter size and filing angles.Very subtle changes in the height of the file on the cutter whether by pushing a 7/32 deeper or a smaller file size ,change the the speed and feeding aggressiveness as well as edge durability.Gary

 

[outdoortype]

To your answer your question about gullet area.Imho,,unless we are talking about race chains,the gullet is minimally important compared to the uniformity of cutter size and filing angles.Very subtle changes in the height of the file on the cutter whether by pushing a 7/32 deeper or a smaller file size ,change the the speed and feeding aggressiveness as well as edge durability.Gary

Thanks for the info. I guess I was too concerned about chip flow. The cutter has to sever the wood before it even thinks about removing the chip.

 

[Tzed250]

Oregon square is notoriously dull out of the box. Couple of swipes and it is good to go.

 

[mdavlee]

The gullet is another small part of a great cutting chain. Some people don't mess with them but I do. When I sharpen round filed a hit the gullet area one stroke when I'm done with the tooth. On square I take it back past the side plate a little bit. Semi chisel I try To put a little more hook on it than chisel to get it too cut a little faster. On round stuff the semi chisel is real close to full chisel when filed like this.

 

[NORMZILLA44]

Good tips Mike. When it comes to sharpening I will lose sleep over it, if the chain is not right. Some guy's do not realize you could have a big, and fast saw, but if you have a S##### chain it will be worthless. Nikko goog point on the facts. Quite a few people do not realize the file, and brand size difference.

 

[SierraWoodsman]

The physics of severing wood fibers.

Good Info from lot of very experienced People Here.
Thanks for the responses. When trying to get that optimized cutting edge it is clear that
edge geometry is paramount, having said that however I have often thought if you could find a 13/64 round, or
perfectly sized and shaped triangle ceramic rod (for square cutter config),
like those used in the spyderco sharpening system you could take cutting performance
to the next level achieveing a mirror polished edge. It would certenly reduce friction. No different
than trying to put a mirror edge your wood plane, wood gouge or chisel,(or any other single bevel edge for that mater).
I have done internet searches but so far have come up with nothing. Just a thought. I know it wouldn't be
practical in real world production, but may be woth trying just for ####s and giggles in clean wood. I see no reason why not.
This whole site is full of people that push the envelope of the performance on their saws. Leonard Lee covers this in his sharpening book.
In chapter 2 "The physics of severing wood fibers" is what got me thinking about the subject.

 

[SierraWoodsman]

My Chipper Experiment.

I can say that I have experimented with this idea on my chipper shredder "Chipping blades" with some
Very impressive results. The factory sharpened plane blades were getting dull and performance was really beginning to suffer.
Upon removing the blades from the disc I could clearly see the damage... I wondered if I could improve the machine performance better than factory.
I decided I would first remove all existing damage with a flat bastard file and then rebuild to original dimensions with first standard 6013 rod and then with Hard Face weld @ cutting edge of the plane blades with a thin layer. Then carefully reground them to the original factory geometry.
My thinking was to use the Samurai Sword theory of edge geometry using very "Hard" cutting edge immediately backed by a softer steel to give toughness. With finer and finer grit diamond stones, gradually brought the cutting edge to a mirror polish but keeping the original edge geometry. As a Final touch I finished With a Flat leather Razor Strop.
The hair's right off my arm "popped off" like a very sharp knife or razor would when I was done. After reinstallation (very carefully I might add)- I was amazed at the performance improvement! The engine was noticeably less bogged down as I chipped the branches (even better than when brand new), The chips expelled were extremely clean cut and the surface of the chips were glazed like "glass" is the best way I could describe their appearance. Also with the addition of the hard facing the machine maintained this performance Level for a much longer period of time.

 

[SawTroll]

Does the gullet or area under the top plate effect cutting performance that much? It seems like 7/32" cleans out the gullet area better than 13/64". But 13/64" gives a better hook.

Yes, I use a 7/32" to file gullets, but mostly a 13/64" on Stihl cutters (3/8" chain).

 

[Thomas Lilli]

The physics of severing wood fibers.

Good Info from lot of very experienced People Here.
Thanks for the responses. When trying to get that optimized cutting edge it is clear that
edge geometry is paramount, having said that however I have often thought if you could find a 13/64 round, or
perfectly sized and shaped triangle ceramic rod (for square cutter config),
like those used in the spyderco sharpening system you could take cutting performance
to the next level achieveing a mirror polished edge. It would certenly reduce friction. No different
than trying to put a mirror edge your wood plane, wood gouge or chisel,(or any other single bevel edge for that mater).
I have done internet searches but so far have come up with nothing. Just a thought. I know it wouldn't be
practical in real world production, but may be woth trying just for ####s and giggles in clean wood. I see no reason why not.
This whole site is full of people that push the envelope of the performance on their saws. Leonard Lee covers this in his sharpening book.
In chapter 2 "The physics of severing wood fibers" is what got me thinking about the subject.

I have been on the same quest. I thought of taking a smaller file and just wrapping progressively finer w/d sand paper (600-800-1200-1500) and polishing up the chains. Take forever relatively but it would be interesting to see what it cuts like. I bought a cbn wheel for the grinder and some diamond round files. Couldn’t find the 13/64 diamond file though, not yet anyway.

 

[User Name Here]

I think the idea of "honing" a chain would be a logical step as far as getting the absolutely sharpest chain possible. I think realistically for cutting firewood or logging this is not worth it. The amount of time it would take to do this would more than offset the gains in a work situation. For play, sure. I currently use a 7/32 file and have great results with it. I might give a 13/64 file a try but I honestly am a little skeptical 1/64 is going to make a huge difference. I try to pay attention to the depth of the file in the tooth as I'm filing and I think you could "adjust" the filing depth 1/64.

 

[SawTroll]

I think the idea of "honing" a chain would be a logical step as far as getting the absolutely sharpest chain possible. I think realistically for cutting firewood or logging this is not worth it. The amount of time it would take to do this would more than offset the gains in a work situation. For play, sure. I currently use a 7/32 file and have great results with it. I might give a 13/64 file a try but I honestly am a little skeptical 1/64 is going to make a huge difference. I try to pay attention to the depth of the file in the tooth as I'm filing and I think you could "adjust" the filing depth 1/64.

You no doubt can (more as well, provided there is room above the strap), but the "hook" will be different.

If you have a defined/deliberate reason to do it all is fine - if not we are in the gamble/"stop-gap" territory.

 

[Thomas Lilli]

Sounds like the old saw of a point of diminishing returns. Oh well, thanks all. Hey Saw Troll, i see you are from the North Pole there. I work with a fellow from Bergen. Brilliant young man.

 

[J.W Younger]

You no doubt can (more as well, provided there is room above the strap), but the "hook" will be different.

If you have a defined/deliberate reason to do it all is fine - if not we are in the gamble/"stop-gap" territory.

Hey old friend,
do you think there would be any advantage to using a 13/64ths on the Stihl chains that have been filed several time with a 7/32th?
The reason I ask is I'm going to be needing some files soon and most of my chains now are Stihl.

 

[Ryan'smilling]

Hey old friend,
do you think there would be any advantage to using a 13/64ths on the Stihl chains that have been filed several time with a 7/32th?
The reason I ask is I'm going to be needing some files soon and most of my chains now are Stihl.

I sometimes use a 7/32 for the first few filings, but i like the 13/64 after that. Don't know about a real advantage, but it'll certainly work.