Ruling may make logging more diffcult in Michigan

[promac850]

Figure I'd better give everyone a heads up about what's going on these days...

Ruling could bog loggers in paperwork | Bridge Michigan

Just frigging great. More people out of work if this goes through.

And maybe they'll go after your state too.


Here's the rest of the commentary in the email I got...

What the whacko’s can’t get in legislation they use the courts to regulate and legislate still. What’s unpopular and not supported by the populace is always welcomed in courts. Regulations kill everything from jobs to sanity. Here it is not about the roads or water issues. It is to stop any and all logging. Then we can import all our wood from Sweden who exports it all over the globe. Our legislators have time to blunt this effort with new laws.


If environmentalists are so worried about dirt and silt in the water for aquatic life why haven’t they sued every city and town in the nation with a storm sewer system? Every rainfall untreated pollution is washed into rivers, lakes and streams. Maybe because liberals are the populace of those communities they get a pass.


In the chart provided, add up all the non-private land ownership. Loggers should start bidding very low for public land timber because of the regulations. Let the regulations pinch the public purse and see what happens.

 

[slowp]

Old news. We live where it started. And remember, I am considered to be an evil liberal.... I do not favor such a ruling so you should take that statement out. But nice try.

 

[promac850]

Old news. We live where it started. And remember, I am considered to be an evil liberal.... I do not favor such a ruling so you should take that statement out. But nice try.

I didn't put that statement in. Honest. I copied/pasted it out of the email.

It's a generalization not covering every liberal.

Kinda one of those stereotypical BS things.


New news for Michigan, that's why I posted it here. There's probably a few other states that don't have this in effect yet.

 

[Fifelaker]

Will the last person to leave Michigan please turn off the lights. I just don't understand why these people want to kill every last job out there. :bang:

 

[slowp]

These People are folks who want to see logging brought to a halt.

They suffer from a lack of education in the realm of Natural Resources. The environmental movement is full of well educated (paper wise) folks. The timber industry and local communities are not.

Our area's National Forests have pretty well been shut down to logging. My National Forest (that is federally owned land) had a half billion board feet per year cut in the 1980s. This year they plan to sell 33 million.

I will admit that we cannot go back to the half billion days. We could increase the cut from the 33 million.

The door can be shut even more, and that effort is being made. This case is based in Oregon, and has been appealed up to the Supreme Court. It has to do with roads and hauling and runoff during the wet season. What is ironic to me, is that roads have runoff in the ditchlines and off the surface whether in use or not. There are simple checks to do to see if sediment is going into the creeks and rivers... one walks and follows the runoff to see if it is going into the creek. (Most ditch relief culverts disperse water where creeks are not located) and if mud is entering the creek, one takes measures to stop operations. It is the landing operations that cause the most muck to be made during wet weather operations. Landings are not located next to creeks.

During the wet season, Mother Nature fills the creeks and rivers with sediment on her own. Today the rivers will be muddy. We've had a lot of snowmelt and rain. This fact is not taught to newcomers and young people.

This lawsuit, as I understand it, will require a pollution permit from the EPA. I do not know if there will be an additional cost. I suspect there will be a cost in time. Maybe the EPA can come up with a streamlined procedure.

On Federal land, specialists within the agency give a no or go opinion after doing their research. Then, in the areas covered under the Northwest Forest Plan, input must be got from the National Marine Fisheries group and an additonal Federal wildlife group. This is a redundant check--an extra check. Now add the EPA to that.

Warshington State issues logging permits to private land owners. The rules for operating in wet areas are strict and specifically defined. Another redundancy would be put in effect if the court rules for additional permits.

That's my interpretation.

 

[hanniedog]

Slowp in all your years of service did any of these "paper sufflers" ever ask you what your thoughts were on anything. If anyone has ideas on what needs changed or done away with is people with their boots on the ground who actually see things first hand.

 

[slowp]

Slowp in all your years of service did any of these "paper sufflers" ever ask you what your thoughts were on anything. If anyone has ideas on what needs changed or done away with is people with their boots on the ground who actually see things first hand.

Don't be stereotyping government workers. The folks who give input are specialists. They are various 'ologists. Some will listen, some won't. It is like any other business with both good and bad people working. Boots on the ground are now data bases. GIS is used.

We used to joke about virtual forestry, and now it is here. It has to be. The Forest Service has been gutted. It is being cut more. They've offered incentives to get people to retire in order to make more cutbacks. The public still wants the same services as when there were 200 people working. Now there's about 50 in the summer, 25 or 30 year round. Go figure.

 

[Steve NW WI]

9th CCOA has a long history of being as unAmerican as a group of overly educated potsmoking hippies can be.

Fear not, all is not lost. The abovementioned group of morons with gavels is also the most overturned COA in the country. If job performance was a condition of employment, they'd all be back at the commune.

/endrant

 

[THE PLUMMER]

A recent discussion between a Forestry Consultant and DNR biologists , the Forester said " A logger does more for the animal habitat by accident than any biologists' plan ever has" . Every Biologist and MDNR person agreed......off the record of course. The EPA is nothing more than a government control agency. Liberals and greenie's are the biggest hypocrites , they love passing laws as long as they don't effect their lives. Someone mentioned it above, Storm drains , we hydro jet and vac them out on a quarterly basis. Approximately 1 ton of material per 20-30 houses for example, it takes a special license not any vac truck can do it. It cost more to suck out and dispose of because of the EPA graded waste that MIGHT exist. We can do almost 12,000 gallons ( or 3 loads) of septic waste for 1 load of storm drain material costs.

 

[chaikwa]

Well, I'm trying to do my part to educate the general public, and kids in particular. Every year my forester and I go to a few local high school shop classes to explain to them where their lumber, as well as other forest products actually come from and the 'how and why' certain trees are selected for harvest. It's basically a mini course in forestry and we spend anywhere from an hour to 3 hours in their classroom. Shortly thereafter they take a field trip to my woodlot where we put the classroom lessons into practical evolutions they can actually see and experience. They measure trees and calculate estimated board footage on the stump. We do the whole 'drive a stake in the ground and see how close the tree falls to it' routine. They don't fell the tree of course, I do, then they all have the chance to make fun of me when I miss! That's the 'fun' part of the whole thing for them! But the teachers love the math, biology and critical thinking lessons that fit within their required lesson plans. After the woodlot and felling lessons, we skid the log the students have selected based on what they've learned about forest management, to my sawmill where they actually get to saw the logs into lumber they can take back to their shop class to use in their projects. THEY do the milling on the sawmill, not me. I'm there guiding them of course, but they are choosing what size lumber to saw and doing the physical labor needed to produce their lumber. This program has been well received by the students and the teachers and administrators absolutely LOVE it! Last year, even the regional Superintendent came out to observe the program in action, which resulted in me giving a presentation to a whole group of Michigan school superintendents.

Lowe's Corporation donated gloves, safety glasses and hard hats to at least give the impression the students can be made safe in a logging operation! Part of the classroom presentation focuses on safety and what is expected of them when they get to the woodlot, including what to wear. No sneakers and absolutely NO horse-play is tolerated. It may be because of the way I present it to them, but we've never had a discipline problem of any kind... kind of amazing considering they're teenagers!

Here's a few pics of the last class:

 

[slowp]

I've put on just 2 presentations during Earth Day where kids wander around to different stations.
I don't know why, but we weren't asked back, here. Really. I think it is because we had kids having fun so they didn't want to go to the 'ologist stations? I filled up some cleaned paintguns and cans with water and we let them "mark" trees. We had guess the height and diameter. We talked about falling the tree, what it might hit, where we would make it go. We talked about using math and trigonometry--which isn't taught here at high school level.

The little kids love to discuss what a tree might smash. We talked about what was in the area--they thought the school busses might be in danger so we took a tape and measured the distance to the busses. About 4 munchkins marched out with the tap and seriously measured the distance. Then I had them pull the tape out and we measured the height. Some of them were figuring out how to use the clinometer. We found the school busses to be in a safe area. But they wanted to measure more stuff, so we did. I told them to go home and use the scientific name for Douglas-fir to impress their parents. I got feedback from a parent that they did. The parent was laughing. I transferred from that place so couldn't do it again.

A friend, who used to be in charge of a group of high school kids working in the woods during summers, would sneak them off to a logging operation, if there was one near, and I'd talk about what was going on while we watched from a distance.

The trouble here is that the teachers seem to be a bit anti-logging. Ironically, the large employer here is a saw mill.

 

[lfnh]

Well, I'm trying to do my part to educate the general public, and kids in particular. Every year my forester and I go to a few local high school shop classes to explain to them where their lumber, as well as other forest products actually come from and the 'how and why' certain trees are selected for harvest. It's basically a mini course in forestry and we spend anywhere from an hour to 3 hours in their classroom. Shortly thereafter they take a field trip to my woodlot where we put the classroom lessons into practical evolutions they can actually see and experience. They measure trees and calculate estimated board footage on the stump. We do the whole 'drive a stake in the ground and see how close the tree falls to it' routine. They don't fell the tree of course, I do, then they all have the chance to make fun of me when I miss! That's the 'fun' part of the whole thing for them! But the teachers love the math, biology and critical thinking lessons that fit within their required lesson plans. After the woodlot and felling lessons, we skid the log the students have selected based on what they've learned about forest management, to my sawmill where they actually get to saw the logs into lumber they can take back to their shop class to use in their projects. THEY do the milling on the sawmill, not me. I'm there guiding them of course, but they are choosing what size lumber to saw and doing the physical labor needed to produce their lumber. This program has been well received by the students and the teachers and administrators absolutely LOVE it! Last year, even the regional Superintendent came out to observe the program in action, which resulted in me giving a presentation to a whole group of Michigan school superintendents.

Lowe's Corporation donated gloves, safety glasses and hard hats to at least give the impression the students can be made safe in a logging operation! Part of the classroom presentation focuses on safety and what is expected of them when they get to the woodlot, including what to wear. No sneakers and absolutely NO horse-play is tolerated. It may be because of the way I present it to them, but we've never had a discipline problem of any kind... kind of amazing considering they're teenagers!

Here's a few pics of the last class:

Made my day reading that this morning. Good to see someone out there giving some practical education to the kids and school superintendentson forestry and harvesting. That'll go a long way to balancing their view of the industry.
To your continued success with the program.

 

[slowp]

But, where are the girls? They need to learn about forestry also. Can you go beyond shop class?

 

[chaikwa]

I've put on just 2 presentations during Earth Day where kids wander around to different stations.
I don't know why, but we weren't asked back, here. Really.

We do a LOT with various school systems both here in Michigan and in New England where I am originally from. Not just forestry presentations, we also have a non-profit fire and life safety education organization and we've been in the schoold for upwards of 15 years now, so we know first hand what teachers and school systems want and need in order for us to be welcomed into schools.

#1 on the list is the whole 'No Child Left Behind' crap. Here in Michigan it's the 'MEAPS' or Michigan Educational Assessment Program, & in Massachusetts the MCAS, or Massachusetts Comprehensive Assessment System. Teachers and school systems need to achieve specific standards within narrow time frames, and if what you are presenting doesn't augment and compliment what's already on their agenda, they're going to look at you with trepidation. We start planning these sessions almost a year in advance, find out what is in the curriculum for the time frame we're proposing to present our programs, (fire or forestry), and talk to the teachers involved to see what we can do to help and what they want to see. Most often, math is the students biggest hurdle, so we try to emphasize that where-ever we can and show the kids how what the teachers are trying to teach them relates to real world examples.

#2 is the realization that we need to engage the kids and make them genuinely interested in what we're saying. They need to have fun but at the same time need to actually learn something.

#3 is making the teachers a part of the whole thing too. We're not replacing them and they need to be with us in all aspects of the delivery. We need to make them feel that they are still running the show and they guide us as we go along with points we may miss where the kids need extra emphasis in certain areas. We are right up front with all administration members that this isn't a day off for the teachers. They need to be present and involved in the class and also need to maintain discipline and order, as they would normally do.

#4, and the last point I will offer, but certainly not the last thing entirely, is that kids almost always need some degree of hands-on participation. Obviously we are not going to turn them loose with a chainsaw and fell a tree, but at some point the advantages of learning have to be weighed against the possibility of liability. We have adequate insurance for what we're doing, but we still don't want to see anyone get hurt either. We keep things overly safe. There is always at least 3 personnel guiding the kids performing potentially dangerous evolutions; when a kid is operating the sawmill, there is someone right beside him, almost literally touching him in order to pull him away or stop him if he starts to do something stupid. There is another person in front of the mill so no one else gets in line with the moving blade. And there is a 3rd person over-seeing over-all operations and keeping an eye on all the other kids around the mill. This is what allows us to let them saw their own lumber. We let them do similar things while in the woodlot; pound in wedges on the back cut before the tree actually falls for example. And we appoint other kids to look for safety issues like what the tree is going to hit on its' way down and what ELSE may fall and potentially injure someone. This REALLY engages them and makes them feel like they're really doing something.

Not to be sarcastic or arrogant, but don't expect the schools to call YOU. 9 times out of 10 they won't. You need to keep on THEM if you want to stay in the schools. They may welcome you in but they'll never pursue YOU!

I hope this answers at least some of your questions and helps you get back into the schools. If you want to talk further you can PM me and I'll give you, (or anyone), my phone number so we can actually speak.

 

[chaikwa]

Made my day reading that this morning. Good to see someone out there giving some practical education to the kids and school superintendentson forestry and harvesting. That'll go a long way to balancing their view of the industry.
To your continued success with the program.

THANK YOU!

But, where are the girls? They need to learn about forestry also. Can you go beyond shop class?

Girls can't be loggers! Just kiddin'! We have actually had girls in our classes that do better than the boys and we welcome them. As far as pursuing something beyond shop classes, we just don't have time. Between our fire education organization, teaching for the National Fire Academy in DC, the Mass Fire Academy in Mass, this logging program plus the paramedic, EMT, Industrial Safety and OSHA classes we conduct, there's just no time left!

 

[madhatte]

But they wanted to measure more stuff, so we did.

Stupid school districts wouldn't know a good thing if it bit them on the ass. Getting kids interested and enthusiastic about things is nothing to scoff at, and to miss the opportunity is not just a shame but downright criminal. I know I didn't care at all for trig when I took it in high school, but was amazed to find it useful when I started working in the woods.

Our seasonal hires are often college students still figuring out what it is they want to do with their lives. I do what I can to show as much as I can of everything I know, to let them see both the good and bad sides of this job, and to send them off at the end of the season with a balanced view of what it is that we do. These will be my peers in just a few years, and I don't want them disillusioned if I can help it.

 

[slowp]

THANK YOU!

Girls can't be loggers! Just kiddin'! We have actually had girls in our classes that do better than the boys and we welcome them. As far as pursuing something beyond shop classes, we just don't have time. Between our fire education organization, teaching for the National Fire Academy in DC, the Mass Fire Academy in Mass, this logging program plus the paramedic, EMT, Industrial Safety and OSHA classes we conduct, there's just no time left!

They can be, along with becoming foresters, wildland firefighters etc. Even though you are kidding, a lot of folks seriously take that view. It should be easier for girls to get a foot in the door now, than it used to be.

 

[lfnh]

Stupid school districts wouldn't know a good thing if it bit them on the ass. Getting kids interested and enthusiastic about things is nothing to scoff at, and to miss the opportunity is not just a shame but downright criminal. I know I didn't care at all for trig when I took it in high school, but was amazed to find it useful when I started working in the woods.

Our seasonal hires are often college students still figuring out what it is they want to do with their lives. I do what I can to show as much as I can of everything I know, to let them see both the good and bad sides of this job, and to send them off at the end of the season with a balanced view of what it is that we do. These will be my peers in just a few years, and I don't want them disillusioned if I can help it.

I'd agreed with what you wrote 110%. Without your going that extra mile, especially on the ground, how else are they going pull the classroom learning and tie it in with the real world. Practical use of math, physics, sciences is often overlooked or undervalued by the classroom educators. Nothing more rewarding than someone really interested in learning cause they see a real use of the education - school or otherwise.

 

[chaikwa]

Nothing more rewarding than someone really interested in learning cause they see a real use of the education - school or otherwise.

Exactly! That's one reason I started the program; to let kids see what they're supposed to be learning DOES in fact have a practical application. Book learning is fine, but if you can't see where you'll ever use it, you'll probably have the opinion that it's not worth learning in the first place.

The other reason I started the program was that I was sick of hearing kids' answer to the question 'Where does your lumber come from?' 9 times out of 10 their answer was 'Home Depot' or 'Lowes'.

 

[4b316]

permits

Here in ny,the loggers have to have permits to cross any creek(Must have a bridge to cross water)they can't skid if raining too hard or long(the state forester can come in,walk around and shut any job dow if skid trails get too wet or muddy.(this is on state owned logging jobs)All creeks,above and below bridge must have hay bales to filter water.State likes the money they derive from permits,some of them can cost big bucks.