smokechase II
Addicted to ArboristSite
Has anyone ever had any experience with chain saw chaps providing dual protection?
Specifically pit vipers in the Southern States.
Specifically pit vipers in the Southern States.
Saw chaps and snake bite
- Thread starter smokechase II
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No. I think they would provide a thickness layer protection, but no way would they stop penetration.
BlueRidgeMark
Addicted to ArboristSite
Kevlar is lousy protection against penetration by sharp, pointy objects. (Like fangs.) An icepick or small knife will go through a bulletproof vest, for example. Kevlar has strong TENSILE strength, meaning it can take a lot of PULL. This is how it stops bullets - the bullet is too big to fit between fibers, but can't pull them apart.
However, it cuts pretty easily. The reason it works with chainsaw protection is that it is so constructed that it allows the chain to pull it loose - it's not securely fastened at the ends. The chain grabs a bunch of fibers and drags them into the sprocket where they jam things up.
However, it cuts pretty easily. The reason it works with chainsaw protection is that it is so constructed that it allows the chain to pull it loose - it's not securely fastened at the ends. The chain grabs a bunch of fibers and drags them into the sprocket where they jam things up.
For myself, I couldnt say that Kevlar cuts easily. I once tried to shorten a pair with a knife.
smokechase II
Addicted to ArboristSite
I work with several different weaves of kevlar and I'm very aware of how it is very abrasion/cut resistant. Many nomex products have some kevlar in them just for this cut resistance.
However, sharp pointy things do cause problems for separating the weave. To make bullet resistant vests they have to laminate tight weaves together then layer them perhaps next to a thin aluminum piece. So the kevlar that is in the saw chaps would be the worst weave possible, it is very loose, much looser than a gunny sack.
There is the ice pick event where a Sherriff from Arizona had a buddy stab him at a vest demo and the ice pick went straight through to his heart and killed him.
This is kind of looking for a war story to settle a bet.
Still hoping for a snake that didn't like a sawyer.
Or vice versa.
However, sharp pointy things do cause problems for separating the weave. To make bullet resistant vests they have to laminate tight weaves together then layer them perhaps next to a thin aluminum piece. So the kevlar that is in the saw chaps would be the worst weave possible, it is very loose, much looser than a gunny sack.
There is the ice pick event where a Sherriff from Arizona had a buddy stab him at a vest demo and the ice pick went straight through to his heart and killed him.
This is kind of looking for a war story to settle a bet.
Still hoping for a snake that didn't like a sawyer.
Or vice versa.
Rotax Robert
Addicted to ArboristSite
The fiber not only helps stop the chain, it also fills the tooth/gullet full to minimize the injury, not prevent it.
Rotax
Rotax
Diesel JD
ArboristSite Guru
I've seen the ones sold that advertiese dual protection in the Baileys Catalogue, but our snakes have some big fangs,and I wouldn't want to depend on chaps for protection. As with the saw chain, best protection is to avoid ever coming into contact with said pit vipers. That's my take on it...but I have no experience and have always wondered if they would really work.
Fish
Tree Freak
Have little worries by me of snakes, when they bite me, they die of cirrhosis
before they can inject the poison..........
Actually, many chaps have no Kevlar at all, just the fiber fill that jams the chain immediately.
I prefer to use my black leather chaps with the stainless steel mail, and
matching thong and keychain, It is a French-Canadian Lambert' original,
with my snakeskin Nocona boots with the stelletto heels.
before they can inject the poison..........
Actually, many chaps have no Kevlar at all, just the fiber fill that jams the chain immediately.
I prefer to use my black leather chaps with the stainless steel mail, and
matching thong and keychain, It is a French-Canadian Lambert' original,
with my snakeskin Nocona boots with the stelletto heels.
Saw Monkey
ArboristSite Lurker
Fish said:
What FISH said. Chainsaw chaps have a lining made of a polyester fill for the most part. Nothing to do with Kevlar. As for the original question, fangs will pierce most woven materials regardless of what they're woven from. Solid materials block piercings best. Try some aluminum leggings. Unless you're standing in water, in which a aluminum jockstrap would be recommended for that kind of work.
Fish
Tree Freak
what he said, even the jockstrap musings!
Fireaxman
ArboristSite Guru
Plastic snake proof "Gaitors" are cheap and easy to wear under your chaps, and provide some extra protection from snakes and chain saw alike.
wagonwheeler
ArboristSite Guru
I wouldn't consider using saw chaps for snakes.
I've got two types of snake leggins from my surveying days in south Georgia and north Fla swamps. One is the old canvas chaps that have a layer of brass chainmail like mesh in them - zipper up the back of the leg and they tie into your belt at the top. The others are the newer kevlar based gaiters w/ velcro and straps, but are only up to the bottom of the kneecap.
I've been struck while wearin the brass chaps and they do work as well as being wondrous protection for pushing through briars and such since they cover my knees and half way up my thighs. But they are some kind of HOT.
The gaiters would probably be good for wearin over saw chaps as they are not nearly as hot and are pretty convienent to pop on and off and will protect your chaps from briars, barbed wire, etc... I wear them scoutin the woods when I know I won't be pushing through thick stuff.
Chaser
I've got two types of snake leggins from my surveying days in south Georgia and north Fla swamps. One is the old canvas chaps that have a layer of brass chainmail like mesh in them - zipper up the back of the leg and they tie into your belt at the top. The others are the newer kevlar based gaiters w/ velcro and straps, but are only up to the bottom of the kneecap.
I've been struck while wearin the brass chaps and they do work as well as being wondrous protection for pushing through briars and such since they cover my knees and half way up my thighs. But they are some kind of HOT.
The gaiters would probably be good for wearin over saw chaps as they are not nearly as hot and are pretty convienent to pop on and off and will protect your chaps from briars, barbed wire, etc... I wear them scoutin the woods when I know I won't be pushing through thick stuff.
Chaser
smokechaser
ArboristSite Operative
Whats up Bill
you going down south?
Or is Jimmy?
you going down south?
Or is Jimmy?
smokechase II
Addicted to ArboristSite
Saw Monkey:
What Fish said: "many chaps have no kevlar at all".
Some are made with kevlar inside. It is found in a few of the more expensive ones.
Yes, One of the problems working in the south is all the time you can spend in and out of the water. Snakes on the surface do present a certain level of risk to a variety of altitudes on the human body.
What Fish said: "many chaps have no kevlar at all".
Some are made with kevlar inside. It is found in a few of the more expensive ones.
Yes, One of the problems working in the south is all the time you can spend in and out of the water. Snakes on the surface do present a certain level of risk to a variety of altitudes on the human body.
smokechase II
Addicted to ArboristSite
Smokechaser:
I think we'll all be headed back there if we want to. Most of
Mississippi and Louisiana are gearing up for a full mid- January to _______ fire season with strike teams in place.
I think I've got a shot at another trip to the Francis Marion.
I think we'll all be headed back there if we want to. Most of
Mississippi and Louisiana are gearing up for a full mid- January to _______ fire season with strike teams in place.
I think I've got a shot at another trip to the Francis Marion.
smokechase II
Addicted to ArboristSite
WagonWheeler:
What kind of snake were you struck by?
What kind of snake were you struck by?
wagonwheeler
ArboristSite Guru
Canebrake.
Those and cottonmouths are quite common here. Eastern Diamond backs are here and there as well as copperheads and pygmy rattlers. I've never seen a pygmy, though.
Chaser
Those and cottonmouths are quite common here. Eastern Diamond backs are here and there as well as copperheads and pygmy rattlers. I've never seen a pygmy, though.
Chaser
smokechase II
Addicted to ArboristSite
WagonWheeler:
A fellow FS employee on the Francis Marion about five years ago was struck by a canebrake. It was about 4' 03" and had recently eaten a frog. {He was looking over a fresh garbage dump for ident and had inadvertently cornered it in a tipped over five gallon bucket.}
He was wearing a fancy pair of leather/kevlar/cordura high top snake boots. Said he didn't think a man his age could jump that high and that far back until that happened. The strike was on top of a foot, close to his shin.
No penetration of the boots at all, just checked out his plumbing and pump for stress.
I asked him {Rob Risley} if he thought the strike that he experienced could have penetrated the leather on a decent pair of logging work boots and he said no way. {Now that was just one strike from a snake that it could be argued was just putting out a warning. Rattlesnakes are well known for a portion of their bites not including venom.}
The Francis Marion is a forest with over 250,000 acres and of all their employee time spent next to those swamps they still know of only two actual snake bites (with invenomation), in the last 3 or so decades. Both from larger Rattlers.
Same for me with the snakes you mention, seen the others but no pygmies. On the Francis Marion NF there is an emphasis on not sport killing the Eastern Diamondback.
The water moccasin does not appear to enjoy an endangered protection status in the south.
A fellow FS employee on the Francis Marion about five years ago was struck by a canebrake. It was about 4' 03" and had recently eaten a frog. {He was looking over a fresh garbage dump for ident and had inadvertently cornered it in a tipped over five gallon bucket.}
He was wearing a fancy pair of leather/kevlar/cordura high top snake boots. Said he didn't think a man his age could jump that high and that far back until that happened. The strike was on top of a foot, close to his shin.
No penetration of the boots at all, just checked out his plumbing and pump for stress.
I asked him {Rob Risley} if he thought the strike that he experienced could have penetrated the leather on a decent pair of logging work boots and he said no way. {Now that was just one strike from a snake that it could be argued was just putting out a warning. Rattlesnakes are well known for a portion of their bites not including venom.}
The Francis Marion is a forest with over 250,000 acres and of all their employee time spent next to those swamps they still know of only two actual snake bites (with invenomation), in the last 3 or so decades. Both from larger Rattlers.
Same for me with the snakes you mention, seen the others but no pygmies. On the Francis Marion NF there is an emphasis on not sport killing the Eastern Diamondback.
The water moccasin does not appear to enjoy an endangered protection status in the south.
wagonwheeler
ArboristSite Guru
smokechase II said:
No one that I know of ever got fangs into skin with the company I worked for. One friend of mine did in HS, but it was a dry bite and the hospital didn't administer antivenom.
I killed two good sized canebrakes on my property this fall. One 4'10" the other 4'11". Really good looking snakes. Just didn't want them around for my kids to discover and we don't have a shortage of them or moccasins.
One I killed w/ a shotgun becuase I had a choice, the other w/ my Spyderco (not my favorite way with such a strong snake but I knew he'd be long gone if I didn't take care of him then and there). I skinned him out and have him rolled up in the freezer (rattles intact) till I tan it. Once skinned he measured 5'3" - sounds more impressive... It was a real scrap for me to get him where I could off him with my Spyderco as he was incredibly mad since I didn't let him run off. I can certainly appreciate what it must be like to be surprised by a big canebrake like your comrade. I was not surprised by this one, but when it came to the moment of truth something inside me (the desire to not get bit while cutting his head off) changed my whole composure. I'm a real laid back guy, but that was most definitely a 'get it done' moment. Almost savage.
That canbrake was much more impressive than the two that struck me.
I was struck once w/o chaps and once with chaps - both were preventable but I generally gravitate TO snakes and not away from them.
Once I was cutting my way out of a property corner marker after having just been assaulted by wasps. I cut a small shrub and a small canebrake (14" or so) dropped out and started to scram so I stepped on his tail to slow him down and get a better look. He turned and struck me right in the laces/eylets, etc... No way he could get through all that leather and metal. I pinned his head to the ground w/ my machete' and confirmed he was a canebrake and just mashed down on the knife a little harder. I headed back to the truck and dug around till I found ONE leggin and put it on. About then my legs started shakin. Funny how your body does things like that.
The other was also a small canebrake and I was holding the prism for a shot and he was right next to me, but I figured if I held still till we got the shot he'd be cool or leave. His patience was shorter than the read rate of our old HP equipment and after buzzin a bit he struck, but they were more like feinting blows though he did smack the chaps pretty good. But he still wasn't striking over my boottops and so the chaps plus boots was way overkill.
Moccasins are plain mean and I'm convinced they look for trouble. They're like reptilian hornets. I've been cutting trees and pulling stumps from our pond this winter to wipe out thier habitat. Bad for my Lab as well as the kids.
I've killed one diamond back and it was a real shame since as I swung my machete' he struck and I wound up slicing a big gash down his side - which ruined the skin... My father killed a 5' diamond back when I was a kid. Only two I've seen here.
Chaser
smokechase II
Addicted to ArboristSite
Great stuff.
You tell a good story and you also tell it well.
I've only seen two moccasins. One was doing a rattler imitation with his/her tail. Both were not afraid but left via the water and disappeared in that tea colored/filled with leaves muck in about one second. None of us chose to follow.
I remember Ed Wheeler picking up a smaller west coast rattler 20 years ago on a fire in South Central Oregon (East of Lakeview). After about 3-4 minutes he got an anxiety rush and just had to put the snake down. He was trembling a bit and I've been surprised enough to understand a true quality fear that any snake can generate in me.
I also enjoy all the other snakes you run across in the South. Sub-tropical
forests are just full of life. Insect eating plants too.
Almost makes up for the fire ants and chiggers.
You tell a good story and you also tell it well.
I've only seen two moccasins. One was doing a rattler imitation with his/her tail. Both were not afraid but left via the water and disappeared in that tea colored/filled with leaves muck in about one second. None of us chose to follow.
I remember Ed Wheeler picking up a smaller west coast rattler 20 years ago on a fire in South Central Oregon (East of Lakeview). After about 3-4 minutes he got an anxiety rush and just had to put the snake down. He was trembling a bit and I've been surprised enough to understand a true quality fear that any snake can generate in me.
I also enjoy all the other snakes you run across in the South. Sub-tropical
forests are just full of life. Insect eating plants too.
Almost makes up for the fire ants and chiggers.
