Sawyer's Dilemma - Qualtiy vs. Quantity ?

[TraditionalTool]

I'm curious to know how some of you sawyers typically approach a log, which could vary depending on the type of logs being cut, and the type of material one needs to produce out of it.

Do you typically cut for quality and go for quarter sawn material?

The reason I ask this is that as I start to understand how to saw logs, it seems there are a couple ways to produce quarter sawn material.

The way shown in the Norwood manual I have explains to cut approx. 1/3rd off the top of the log, then cut the middle 1/3rd of the log into quarter sawn material, which then leaves you with 2 flitches from the top/bottom of the log which can be turned 90 degrees to be cut quarter sawn as well. This leaves narrow sections on the 2/3rds of the log. As an example, let's say we have a 24" log, we would end up with 8x24 for each 1/3rd, the center producing the quarter sawn, but the other 2 flitches producing much narrower, and probably yielding about 6" - 7" after the bark/cambium is removed. I can see how a sawyer might tend to cut those flitches as flat sawn to yield wider material.

However, in reading Hoadley's book, "Understanding Wood", he shows quarter sawn as actually quartering the diameter, and turning each quarter so that the center faced either side and slicing it for each quarter. This obviously yields narrower material, but seems that it will product more in the mid range. IOW, you won't get any 22" wide quarter sawn from a 24" diameter tree, but would be lucky to get 8"-10" from the looks of the quarter, at least to my eyes.

It seems that without too much care, flatsawn material will tend to leave more cupped or crook material, if not stacked and/or dried properly. But it also makes me wonder, if you have a section in the middle of the log, would that tend to cup/crook the wider pieces of quarter sawn, when flat sawing across the center 1/3rd of the log, as shown in the Norwood manual?

How do some of you sawyers approach your logs to yield the best results overall?

 

[mtngun]

I'm not a "real" sawyer, but Backwoods and Bmorgan had an excellent discussion on the subject a while back.

how to read a log

Backwoods summed it up nicely....

I just want to add quarter sawing is for hardwoods, and softwoods should be treated as a tube that you want to square up. If you can only take two stacks of boards out of the log, stop and rethink how you are taking them out of the log. By splitting the log in half, both stacks will have crook in them. Position your cuts so that you take off a couple of jacket boards and a single stack of boards and they will all be straighter in the end. If the log is large enough to get a triple stack with a couple of jacket boards, that is like having a single stack and the stresses of the wood will be contained.

I hope that is a bit clearer then mud. The guy that I am training on my mill is stuck on milling hardwoods and has a real hard time adjusting to milling softwoods.

One time I spent a couple of days quartersawing a pine, just to say I had done quartersawing. It was a good learning experience, but otherwise pointless. As Backwoods said, quarter sawing is for hardwoods.

 

[TraditionalTool]

I'm not a "real" sawyer, but Backwoods and Bmorgan had an excellent discussion on the subject a while back.

Thank you for pointing this out, someone did point me to this a while ago, and I forgot to mark it, but I did this time and got that PDF which Brad linked to in that thread.

how to read a log

Good info, I just want to add quarter sawing is for hardwoods, and softwoods should be treated as a tube that you want to square up. If you can only take two stacks of boards out of the log, stop and rethink how you are taking them out of the log. By splitting the log in half, both stacks will have crook in them. Position your cuts so that you take off a couple of jacket boards and a single stack of boards and they will all be straighter in the end. If the log is large enough to get a triple stack with a couple of jacket boards, that is like having a single stack and the stresses of the wood will be contained.
I hope that is a bit clearer then mud. The guy that I am training on my mill is stuck on milling hardwoods and has a real hard time adjusting to milling softwoods.

I quoted Backwood's text from that thread and agree it is an excellent summary.

I should have my Doug Fir logs soon, along with the mill, and my first project will be to figure out how to cut up the 6x10 rafters out of them. In reading what Backwoods said, this will be softwood that is being used for structural timber (i.e., rafters). If I understand correctly, I want to stay away from splitting the log to leave the pith in the center, and it would be preferable to have a center section with the pith in the center of it, and mill the outer sections of the log separate. I am not sure how big the logs are that I will be getting, but the seller did have a couple decent sized ones in the pile, could have been 26"-30" in diameter.

If I can get a triple stack that is 6" wide per stack, and get 2 cants per stack, that seems like it would be preferable. That would be a large cant from the tree that is 18"x20", and give me 6 rafters. Does that make sense to cut a tree up like that for use as rafters?

I think I will chant this mantra for a bit so I don't forget it...

"quarter sawing is for hardwoods, softwoods should be treated like a tube"

 

[Brmorgan]

Yes, any piece that is cut from the center of the log across the entire (or near entire) width of the log with the pith in the middle will have a severe tendency to cup or split at the pith, because as the wood shrinks all the movement is pulling towards the center of the piece. Of course if you cut the piece thick enough this effect diminishes since the sheer size makes the piece more stable. But if you were to cut, say, a 22" wide 1" thick piece with the pith in the center, you'd better strap/weight it down good while it dries or you'll likely have a canoe once it's done.

As for the beams, conventional wisdom says that a box-heart cut where the pith is in the center (give or take) of the piece will produce the most stable beam. I haven't really cut all that many beams myself though, so there are others here that can speak with more experience as to how much movement you could expect from large pieces cut like that. I will say that I've never followed such guidelines with what few beams I have cut, I just fit the pieces in the log where they work out the best, and I haven't had any warp past usability yet.

 

[TraditionalTool]

Brad,

Yeah, in the best world I could have straight 12" logs to cut a single 6x10 rafter out of, but I'm not sure the REAL world is going to work like that. lol

I'll wait to see what I get when the logs come the end of this week.

I have a lot of white pine cants, but the structural engineer played arm wrestle with us over the white pine for the rafters, so I switched to Doug Fir to appease him. This left me in need to find the logs myself and/or someone to supply me with the 6x10 rafters. That led to the sawmill, etc...since I figure I'm gonna need a LOT more wood for this house to finish it, even though it's small (28'x32'). It has a full walkout basement and a 2nd floor.

I might just get separate logs, he was looking and trying to figure out if he had 10 20' logs. As I said, I'll know more after the logs get here what I'm getting and go from there.

I also have a bunch of 2x12 rafters for the porches, which I have been thinking about cutting a bit oversize. And the 6x10 could go oversize also, if I have enough timber, as I want to adz all of them. Was thinking about taking the porch rafters to 3x12s and adz them. They will be pretty dense and the plans call for 2x12s, 16" OC, like typical roofing (for the porches). The roof rafters are 6' OC.

What would you do for 2x12, just cut a square cant out of the tube and get what I can out of the stacks?

 

[mountainlake]

I'm curious to know how some of you sawyers typically approach a log, which could vary depending on the type of logs being cut, and the type of material one needs to produce out of it.

Do you typically cut for quality and go for quarter sawn material?

The reason I ask this is that as I start to understand how to saw logs, it seems there are a couple ways to produce quarter sawn material.

The way shown in the Norwood manual I have explains to cut approx. 1/3rd off the top of the log, then cut the middle 1/3rd of the log into quarter sawn material, which then leaves you with 2 flitches from the top/bottom of the log which can be turned 90 degrees to be cut quarter sawn as well. This leaves narrow sections on the 2/3rds of the log. As an example, let's say we have a 24" log, we would end up with 8x24 for each 1/3rd, the center producing the quarter sawn, but the other 2 flitches producing much narrower, and probably yielding about 6" - 7" after the bark/cambium is removed. I can see how a sawyer might tend to cut those flitches as flat sawn to yield wider material.

However, in reading Hoadley's book, "Understanding Wood", he shows quarter sawn as actually quartering the diameter, and turning each quarter so that the center faced either side and slicing it for each quarter. This obviously yields narrower material, but seems that it will product more in the mid range. IOW, you won't get any 22" wide quarter sawn from a 24" diameter tree, but would be lucky to get 8"-10" from the looks of the quarter, at least to my eyes.

It seems that without too much care, flatsawn material will tend to leave more cupped or crook material, if not stacked and/or dried properly. But it also makes me wonder, if you have a section in the middle of the log, would that tend to cup/crook the wider pieces of quarter sawn, when flat sawing across the center 1/3rd of the log, as shown in the Norwood manual?

How do some of you sawyers approach your logs to yield the best results overall?

Do it the Norwood way, you'll get just as much QS lumber and it doesn't take much more time than flat sawing . You need to cut the center out of those wide middle boards or do it later on the table saw. I find that the real wide boards dry straight if not right on the top of the stack. Steve

 

[Mike Van]

On beam size stock, I think you're going to find that the pith has to be boxed to keep a straight beam. I've done 4x8's etc. by splitting an 8x8 and many times the two pieces will peal up like banannas or skis. Not sure how doug fir will react as we have none here. For your 2x12's, I would make a cant come out 12" wide, and cut 2" planks off it. Or, some of the outside boards from making your 6x10's might make 2x12's if your logs are big enough. Myself, I don't Q-saw, as people don't ask me for it. Takes too long, wastes too much lumber, but thats my opinion.

 

[TraditionalTool]

On beam size stock, I think you're going to find that the pith has to be boxed to keep a straight beam. I've done 4x8's etc. by splitting an 8x8 and many times the two pieces will peal up like banannas or skis. Not sure how doug fir will react as we have none here. For your 2x12's, I would make a cant come out 12" wide, and cut 2" planks off it. Or, some of the outside boards from making your 6x10's might make 2x12's if your logs are big enough. Myself, I don't Q-saw, as people don't ask me for it. Takes too long, wastes too much lumber, but thats my opinion.

Mike,

I certainly don't want any bananas, no sireeee...my mentor is getting back from a road trip and will also consult him upon his return. We had originally planned to use Eastern White Pine, but through a series of arm wrestling with the structural engineer it is now Doug Fir. I believe Tim Bullock has used Doug Fir before, for joists and rafters, so when he gets back in the next day or so I will ask him also what the best way to cut those would be.

If I understand you correctly, I may need to get box-heart for the 6x12s, and after I get my logs here soon I will be able to tell if I have enough to cover that.

From what both Backwoods and Bmorgan have said in another thread, it is probably best to make either a single or triple stack cut out of the log as to leave the pith in the center of the center stack, if that makes sense. Otherwise that could lead to crook/cup on both sides if you cut a double stack, for instance.

Thanks for your comments Mike.