Seeking Forestry advice in VA

[LHJim]

Folks,

I have been looking to purchase acreage in South-Central VA and have recently came across a couple of properties with Timber on them (these have LobLolly Pines but other properties may have other type of trees on the properties).

I have looked high and low for information on how a person can estimate the value of timber on their property. I ask this because I do not want to pay overpay on timbered property that will be worth alot 20 years from now. I want to pay for the value of the land plus the timber as of today. I am not really interested in a timber cruise, because this is expensive and is mostly used to value a timber before putting out a bid.

Any idea of resources that help a person estimate the value of timber properties? I may eventually have to contact the local Forestry office but even those folks may only deal with properties that owners are looking to value so they can put out a bid.

I am looking for help in estimating the value of a property with timber on it. Anyone have any ideas?

BTW, this is a Great Site with many informative articles.

Any Forestery who knows how to help me, or know of a business that can help me? Maybe a relator who knows Timber properties? Any help will be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
LHJim

 

[Fumbler]

The only way to get an accurate idea of the value is to pay for a timber cruise.

There are two popular methods of cruising timber. Generally you take points or plots at regular intervals.

Plot method - You take a fixed plot radius and tally the trees. The plot size is usually 1/00 of an acre, or a circle with a radius of approximately 11'-9"

-In every plot; Count the number of trees in each 1 or 2 inch diameter size class (diameter measured at breast heigh-4.5" off the ground) making sure you document the species. Make a note of how tall the trees are.
-Average the number of trees per size class over the number of plots you took.
-Use a tree volume table to figure out how many cords or board feet are in a tree of each size class.
-Multiply the volume per tree by the number of trees in each size class.
-Total up the volumes and multiply by 100 to get the volume per acre.
-Multiply the volume per acre by number of aces in the tract.
-Find a price per unit volume for each type of timber and multiply your total volume by that price.
Prices can be found at Timber Mart-South or Forest2Market.

A faster way is to take point samples on a grid.
Point samples measure the basal area (cross sectional area expressed as ft² per acre) at that one plot using a prism. With a 10 factor prism you multiply the number of "in" trees by 10 to get the basal area per acre.
Average all of your basal areas and to get an average basal area of the tract.
Stick the basal area, along with the height of the trees into a "quick cruise computer" found on this link:
http://www.na.fs.fed.us/pubs/refhbk/refhbk.pdf
That will give you an approximate volume per acre. Multiply the approximate volume per acre by the number of acres, then by the price per unit to get a value.

Doing a cruise this rough only works in stands of consistent timber size and species.
It gets more complicated if you merchandize your timber to figure up a closer esitmate.

Contact the VA Department of Forestry and they may have a list of contract timber cruisers. They probably have a list of consulting forester. Many consulting forester have real estate licenses and will also cruise timber for a price.

Google "timber cruising" or "timber estimating" and you may find a lot of instructions.

If you read enough from the above link you will figure out how to cruise timber on your own.

 

[LHJim]

timber cruisin....

Fumbler,

Thanks for contributing to this thread. I knew one alternative is to get a Timber Cruise.

The reason why I brought this up is because I am looking to buy some acreage in southern VA and being I do not know if my offer will be accepted and even with a Timber Cruise, its hard to imagine contracting a Forester to get a Timber Cruise when you are considering buying acreage with standing timber. You know what I mean? I heard back from two certified Forestry guys about a timber cruise, and one states he will work with me for $250 a day and the other one is at $50/hr with travel included.

I do not have a problem getting a timber cruise if I owned the place and wanted to know the value of my timber. But I am not sure how folks who want to buy a piece of property that already has standing timber on it go through with estimating the value of the timber on the acreage.

My guess is people who are buying an acreage of <50 or so, just make an offer for the value of the land and a little more for the timber, especially if the timber is relatively young. I say this because its hard to fathom paying
$1K or more to get an estimate on the value of the timber when the offer may not be accepted for any reason.

Now, if this was a 1000acre property with 800 acres in timber, this would be an entirely different matter and assuming the cost of a 1000 acre is high, I see obtaining a timber cruise a good investment. I hope you see what I am getting.

So my question is, how do folks who are interested in buying acreage, make that a small acreage, estimate the value of timber on the acreage? I don't believe prospective buyers of small acreage hire someone to do a timber cruise when they are considering an offer because of the price tag...but I may be wrong (and have been many times). But realize I am not looking for an accurate value of a timber on some acreage...I just don't want to pay
$50K more for a property on account of the timber, when it is worth $20K

I also don't see many realtors who are experienced in transactions involving timber so I think they probably just estimate a bit high for listings with timber.

Well...onward I go at looking into how people go about buying a small acreage that has timber on it. (Note that I was not initially looking for property with timber, it just happens that I came across some acreage that is idally located and happens to have some timber on it....this is how I came upon this cool site!).

Thanks for your inputs,
Jim

 

[Fumbler]

Typically people buying land (<50 ac) do not pay separately for the timber.
Often times if the timber has decent value it is harvested before the land is sold.

I don't understand why you wouldn't want a timber cruise done.
If you want to know how much to pay then that is how you find out what its worth.
Have a cruise done, estimate the future value, then discount the value to its present age.
It's a timber cruise or you simply offer the seller a random price.

Again, most people dont take timber into account on small pieces.

 

[slowp]

Sounds like you don't need an too accurate of an estimate. How experienced with timber are you? For what you want, you might read up and do a rough, do it yourself estimate. Things to consider, what is the average size tree?
How many different species? What kind of growing site? What is the quality of the logs you would get? Buy a clinometer to measure heights, a combination D-tape Spencer tape (50' works if the trees are short, 100' otherwise) and get to work. I don't think you need to worry about defect in the trees for what you want.
Read up on timber cruising. The USFS puts out some simple guides to start their people out. But, this is only to give you a ROUGH estimate. For accuracy, you would need to have an experienced cruiser go through it.
Also, after guessing at the volume, you need to figure out what it would take to log it. What is the terrain? How close to roads? How close to the mill or buyer? What kind of equipment will work? What kind of regulations will affect your harvest?
Guessing the future value requires a crystal ball. Out here, softwood prices are at an all time low. Alder is sky high. Who'da thunk it?

 

[Fumbler]

I'll tell you what.
If you really want a general estimate then go take a look at the tract.
Tell me the:
-Diameter range and average diameter
-total height of the trees
-average number of trees in 1/100 acre plots
-What species are there

Measure these things in 5 plots randomly placed spots in the tract and I'll tell you what I think it should be worth.

Better yet, take a picture while standing in the tract. Make sure there's something for a visual size reference (ie another person).

 

[treetopper]

Professional foresters

The source for professional forestry assistance is www.acf-foresters.com . Use "find a forester" to locate a member near your site. You need advice not only on what the timber is worth now as part of the purchase but what it will be worth in the future and the taxation implications of timber ownership.

treetopper

 

[Ryan Willock]

Where are you at in SWVA?? I am in stuart.

 

[Jacob J.]

Contact the county government or municipality where the property is located and see if there's a county lands management officer, staff forester, or extension service agent forester from a local university. They can come out and eyeball what you have in a short time and give you a good idea of what you have, and typically they don't charge a dime. They might ask for donations though.

 

[Bigtreecutter]

Quick Timber value

If all trees are 20 foot tall - zero dollars. If all trees are 20-80 foot tall the
price will be $200.00 to $1200.00 per acre. If all trees are 80 foot or taller
the price will be $1200.00 to $2500.00 per acre. If it feels like you are standing in the Amazon Rain forest and your still not interested call me - 336/736-0372.
p.s. These prices are good for everything except Virginia pine!

 

[Fumbler]

If all trees are 20 foot tall - zero dollars. If all trees are 20-80 foot tall the
price will be $200.00 to $1200.00 per acre. If all trees are 80 foot or taller
the price will be $1200.00 to $2500.00 per acre. If it feels like you are standing in the Amazon Rain forest and your still not interested call me - 336/736-0372.
p.s. These prices are good for everything except Virginia pine!

That's a good very conservative estimate.
Although if it's all straight pine 14+ inches in diameter and 80+ feet tall it could potentially be worth as much as $5000 an acre. Thats depending on location, tract size, access, and a whole lot of other factors.

 

[LHJim]

estimating value

Thanks for all of these contributions to this thread. Still working on it, you know and I have plans to go see a couple properties near the end of this month.

bigtree gave me something I am looking for, although I am taking his word for it. I am gonna try answer as many questions as I can remember, LOL.

-I am in northern VA, but looking at a few properties in SW VA.
-Property is located at or around Gretna, VA and some are down to Danville.
-I am not experienced with timber, but I have an engineering degree so
*numbers* don't scare me

The reason why I brought up this topic is because I honestly do not think people buying small acreage (less than 100) with say 50 or 60 acres in timber retain a forester to do a timber cruise, unless a contingency of some sort is included in the offer (for example, listing states 50 acres but timber cruise shows 25 acres and offer is void etc).

From the internet search it is hard to see how much timber is on the property and how many acres it covers. But the listing states 60 acres in loblolly pines and when I emailed the agent to ask specific questions (you wonder why he did not include this in the listing huh?), he stated there is 80 acres of 10 year old loblolly pine. So you now see, this is someone fudging all of this. But the owner raised the price by $50K...this is what brought me to inquire about timber products.

I started looking for some farm land to purchase, I am a recreational guy and want my kids experience what I did when I was a kid in KY. ATV and hunting and the like. Found that not a whole lot of farm is around but vacant land is mostly used for timber growth. This is what brough me to this site.

Alot of good info on this site. I guess from BigTree's post, you can safely say that a 60 acres of 10 year old loblolly pine is really worth very little (I am not talking about what it is worth 25 years later but what it is worth right now). I find this pretty astounding because a person would have to put $$$ into clearing/planting and let grow for 10 years. It should be worth something but heck, what do I know? In terms of making an offer, we can assume this 10 year old 60ac. loblolly pine plantation is worth nothing or very little, and the value is in theland itself.

Cool, now I just got to see it and decide if this is what I want. When and if I buy a place, I will probably plant some food plots and do a bit of work around there, so I will need to have equipment and will be looking ot buy some USED equipment. Think my boy will have fun?

I'll get back on here after I visit the place. I will be taking my agent, and will remember to get a picture of her standing next to a loblolly pine so we can figure the height of the tree. But I think with a 10 year old loblolly pine, the height will be pretty standard...what is the average height of a 10 year old loblolly pine?

Thanks guys...if you can think of something new throw it out here

 

[LHJim]

height of trees per age

Well, I think I read somewhere where a 10 year old Loblolly Pine will have an height of 30 feet...wow...did not know they grew that fast. But I guess I can expect trees at 10 year old have height average of between 24 - 32 feet.

Well, this changes the cost structure... me thinks I better go get me a

I don't understand why the listing agent said the owner raised the price
$50K!

I'll just have to take a look at it and see..

Thanks folks!

 

[Fumbler]

Well, I think I read somewhere where a 10 year old Loblolly Pine will have an height of 30 feet...wow...did not know they grew that fast. But I guess I can expect trees at 10 year old have height average of between 24 - 32 feet.

Well, this changes the cost structure... me thinks I better go get me a

I don't understand why the listing agent said the owner raised the price
$50K!

I'll just have to take a look at it and see..

Thanks folks!

10 year old loblolly pines in the coastal plain (more productive soils) can reach 30-40 feet, but in the piedmont you'd expect half of that height in most areas.

True, 10 year old pines are worth nothing, but they may be ready for a commercial thin in 3-6 years depending on the current spacing and the productivity of the land.
You get about $150-300 per acre in the average commercial thin around here.

 

[highsiera]

A lot of the land in that part gets cutover pretty regular as their are several chipboard mills around the Danville/Halifax. Personally, I've pursued a similar investigation in recent years in that region, although more qualitative than quantitive and basically found that any timber value in a 100 acre or less parcel, slectively managed (not clear cut) would basically cover the taxes and upkeep of the property, but not put a dent in the principal or interest it would cost you to acquire it. In short, I would be buying the property to enjoy it's aesthetics and not expecting the trees to pay for my investment. Of course for $1000 to $2000 an acre, your expectations have to be low. Now I'm young and I've got plenty of time to watch those trees grow into more valuable merchantable timber. In the meantime, I'm looking for a place to walk in the woods, run my saws unfettered and justify buying that old Cat I've always wanted. B

 

[LHJim]

timber estimating

Fumbler,

Guess you are right...although the 10 y/o are worth very little, they can fetch some money when doing a thining. I knew that but did not know how much. I guess that little word "worth very littie but can fetch some money" is what has all landowners thinking high dollars for their place.

highsiera, yes I see what you mean. Selective harvest can bring in some money and a guy would want that because hiring a forester to consult and thin and burn will cost some money, so if one could get a little money from the tree removal then that wouyld help some.

I take it from all of this talk, is that a young timber that is around 10 years old is not considered a huge investment on a small parcel, because there are other investments that need to be made like the cost to manage property ($$ to foresters) not to mention someone buying land would have to pay interest around 8.5% for raw land. Also, when buying asmall parcel acreage, the cost associated with small parcents like under 100 acres is going to cost more per acreage than if you bought 1,000 acreage.

So all in all, I guess not to much emphasis should be placed on young loblolly timber (the predominant timer in Southern VA) as the cost per acre. I guess I will get educated pretyt soon when I go look at a couple properties in the following two weekends.

Thanks for your widsom...