Spurs in the canopy, taking out the head.

[fineform]

The first tree I climbed with spurs was a triple-boled 25m eucalypt (stringybark) - too close to the house and it had to go. I got nervous taking out the head so I prepped the cut and then finished it off using a pole saw from adjacent tree.

So far I have Tree Climber's Companion, Spurs, flipline/lanyard, modified rock-climbing harness & ropes, borrowed Bigshot (that thing makes life easy!).

I'm currently working on a 25-30m Grey gum (3m from house and overhanging it). Everything has been pretty easy so far, roping branches down. But the central (highest) branch looks a bit hard to climb in spurs because it just curls upward and skyward.

It doesn't "feel right" to use spurs when the trunk/branch is tapering down from 6 inches diameter.

Are there any rules of thumb regarding spurs and the diameter of canopy branches?

Any resources/video/info about taking out the head of a tree in particular?

Thanks
TIM

 

[kevin bingham]

you just gotta practice it. good guys on spurs can gaff little twigs.

 

[Bermie]

Ok, because you are new, going to say it...I hope you are only spiking trees that are being removed completely!

That said, up on a skinny leader, wrap your lanyard completely around the trunk once, from one D..then all the way around the trunk once, then to the other D, not just D, around back of trunk, to other D...it will give you better stability and arrest a fall if you 'gaff out' . Then choker your lifeline below so you will have some way to get down quickly if needed and/or have a comfy way to get down when you've finished chunking and want to fell the spar.

When taking out the head, keep it as small as possible, have a pull rope on it and a wedge can be handy. Remember the head will push back on the spar as it goes over, so you need to brace yourself for the 'ride'!! Finish the cut, dump the saw, spikes in good, lean back into your flipline, arms straight and braced against the top, legs straight but able to flex a bit for the ride...

All this needs to happen in a very short time, so think it out BEFORE you make your final cut, don't chase the hinge, once that top starts to go...STOP cutting, dump the saw and brace!

 

[tramp bushler]

Why not chase the hinge .??? I keep cutting until the top is gone if necessary . Last thing I want is the pole I'm on to do is split . . I've had some pretty good rides but nothing bad has ever happened . Once the top is a foot or so away I pull and dump the saw and get my right hand on my flip line or chain and pray nothing breaks off under me . ... I have never thot about taking a wrap around the tree ... good idea . Thanks .

 

[beowulf343]

If you are going to be standing on your spikes on something that small, use a pole gaff. The shorter gaff will bring your feet in closer to the tree and will feel more stable. In something that small, I also like to rotate my feet forward while keeping the gaff in the tree until the fat part of the foot just in front of the gaff is also touching the tree. Just feels more stable. Bermie's double wrap is a necessity.

Chasing the hinge? Cut through your hinge and you lose control. I've never been a fan of "dumping" the saw either. Having a 395 jerk onto the end of a 12 foot lanyard can yank you seriously off balance. "Dumping" a saw has always smacked of a loss of control to me. Relax, don't fight the ride.

 

[Bermie]

When I say 'dump the saw' I didn't mean just drop it...rather swing it around, grab the lanyard and let it slide down through your hand...controlled lower, albeit fast!

You are right beowulf...just dropping it is bad form and can be dangerous!

'Chasing the hinge'...like I see so many people do, they keep cutting even once the tree is committed, sure way to lose control...

 

[fineform]

Wow - what a great response!

kevin bingham: OK. Gaffs can do small diam. Thanks.
beowulf343: Pole spikes - yeah - that makes sense...

Bermie:

up on a skinny leader, wrap your lanyard completely around the trunk once, from one D..then all the way around the trunk once, then to the other D, not just D, around back of trunk, to other D...it will give you better stability and arrest a fall if you 'gaff out'

.Wrapping the flipline (lanyard) once around (I feel safer already - that makes heaps of sense to me! Now I know why some guys have said they prefer non-wire core in the canopy.)
Now, did you mean to wrap around once like this...

... or are you saying to come back and wrap around again (twice) ?
But to wrap around again would you use a caribiner on the left "D". I'm also wondering how the wire-core would turn 180 thru the biner, unless I run the lanyard right behind me and keep going... Something like Diagram B...
Hmmm - or then again, how about 2 biners and keep it all on the "D"'s. (Diagram C)

Hmmm - but now I'm starting to think about having a second lanyard (non-wirecore) to run the extra loops???

Here's some photos...

Then again - I might be able to cut the whole thing in one go

- but no doubt the branch will look a lot bigger once I get up there... Like Beamer says..."When taking out the head, keep it as small as possible"...
I think I'll climb to the top (where I would have tied the rope in picture above) and take out the head a little at a time. Looks to be about 4 inches diameter there, and I've been amazed how strong those branches can be. Might even do a lifeline to adjacent tree so I feel safer.
Tim

 

[treemandan]

When I say 'dump the saw' I didn't mean just drop it...rather swing it around, grab the lanyard and let it slide down through your hand...controlled lower, albeit fast!

You are right beowulf...just dropping it is bad form and can be dangerous!

'Chasing the hinge'...like I see so many people do, they keep cutting even once the tree is committed, sure way to lose control...

I stay on my #### til the bitter end. I will keep a hand on it for as long as I can if need be, maybe give the butt a shove off. The ones I don't have to chase, well, we can just call them the easier ones.

 

[fineform]

Re-reading Bermie's post...

wrap your lanyard completely around the trunk once, from one D..then all the way around the trunk once, then to the other D, not just D, around back of trunk, to other D...it will give you better stability and arrest a fall if you 'gaff out

'
Hmmm - I'm pretty sure now that you mean this...

I did a little practice (closer to the ground) on some 6" diam wattle trees (junk) and it feels heaps safer with the extra loop. My 5/8" wire-core lanyard ("flipline" in Australia) seems to work OK because it sort of springs open when you want to shift it. What a fantastic little piece of advice! :yourock:

Tim

 

[Blakesmaster]

I stay on my #### til the bitter end. I will keep a hand on it for as long as I can if need be, maybe give the butt a shove off. The ones I don't have to chase, well, we can just call them the easier ones.

Word. For the most part, if you don't have to chase the hinge you're probably taking your tops smaller than necessary. The last thing I want is for a top to flip and hit something behind me, or split the trunk or do any of the myriad of unpredictable things that too much hinge wood can cause. Gunning your hinge don't really matter if you're roping every piece and taking them small which is definitely advisable for the novice climber.

 

[Blakesmaster]

Re-reading Bermie's post...

'
Hmmm - I'm pretty sure now that you mean this...

I did a little practice (closer to the ground) on some 6" diam wattle trees (junk) and it feels heaps safer with the extra loop. My 5/8" wire-core lanyard ("flipline" in Australia) seems to work OK because it sort of springs open when you want to shift it. What a fantastic little piece of advice! :yourock:

Tim

Yes, Tim, that's what she meant. Stay safe.

 

[D Mc]

Here's some photos...

Then again - I might be able to cut the whole thing in one go

-Tim

Tim, that is a lot of tree for someone with very little experience. There are so many variables in each tree removal that it can take years to become proficient and mistake-free.

You have received some good advice and tips but it will take luck to succeed without property damage or personal injury. Luck can change.

Try to find someone in your area that is reputable and qualified in tree work that will teach you what you need to know.

Dave

 

[Bermie]

Re-reading Bermie's post...

'
Hmmm - I'm pretty sure now that you mean this...

I did a little practice (closer to the ground) on some 6" diam wattle trees (junk) and it feels heaps safer with the extra loop. My 5/8" wire-core lanyard ("flipline" in Australia) seems to work OK because it sort of springs open when you want to shift it. What a fantastic little piece of advice! :yourock:

Tim

That is what I meant. It works just as well with a wirecore as a regular lanyard. It will arrest a fall much better too if you gaff out. Feeling secure in the tree will help you relax...don't take on too much at once there fella!

For Blakes and the Dan...you byes are working bigger trees than I do probably, I mean in diameter. But if a top is weighted why would you continue to cut through the hinge once its on its way? I agree leaving too much hinge could cause issues...but cutting all the way??

(by the way 'byes' is Bermuda slang for guys, chaps, men, dudes....)

 

[Blakesmaster]

For Blakes and the Dan...you byes are working bigger trees than I do probably, I mean in diameter. But if a top is weighted why would you continue to cut through the hinge once its on its way? I agree leaving too much hinge could cause issues...but cutting all the way??

(by the way 'byes' is Bermuda slang for guys, chaps, men, dudes....)

I honestly don't know if I've ever been able to cut the whole way through, Bermie, and you're right there's no reason to. Generally speaking I'll keep on it till the notch closes up and pops the rest of the hinge wood. Most times I'm more fearful of dogging in too hard and stalling the saw not being able to cut enough before she pops off funny.

 

[Bermie]

Ok, I see what you mean, you are trying to make sure you cut ENOUGH hinge, even once it starts to go, to prevent bad issues with leaving a too thick hinge...I can understand that

 

[fineform]

Re hinge...
I would assume that an overly-thick hinge would occur when...
(a) the rope is pulling hard
(b) the leader is leaning a lot (off centre)

Generally speaking I'll keep on it till the notch closes up and pops the rest of the hinge wood.

And isn't the closing of the notch pretty much the beginning of the ride - (it is just about to pop)... which is why I would think others are arguing for an earlier retreat from the cut.

What about a wider notch then? This gives more time, and the leader is more committed before the hinge pops, so less chance of a surprise (assuming the wood can handle more bending in the hinge - which would argue for a thinner hinge). Seems to work that way on the ground (felling). But I'm seeing a lot of pretty narrow notches on YouTube (like about 15 degrees).

I think hinge variables would be:
1. Thickness (determined by applied bending load - rope force/height/lean)
2. Notch angle (sets the angle of fall before notch closes and hinge pops)
3. Notch depth (sets hinge length)
4. Wood flexibility (sets maximum bend angle)

I'm not trying to be analytical, I just find the dynamics quite interesting.

 

[tree md]

I'll chase the hinge in certain situations.

First, I am always watching the top as I am cutting. I will usually glance at my cut and make sure I am making a good level cut, making sure the kerf isn't closing up on a leaner that is being pulled off of me and looking how far I am through the cut. Sometimes I will stop cutting altogether and look the situation over before I get too far into a critical cut but I am always watching the top when it comes over. I will chase the hinge when I need to steer a top in a certain direction or when I am having a heavy top pulled off of me. On big wood, especially if it is leaning heavy in my direction and being pulled slowly off of me, I am chasing the hinge like a mad man trying to get through as much wood as I can to get the top to come over without hanging up or god forbid something happening on the ground that would make the top come back my way.

On the easy ones I like to leisurely pull my saw out of the Kerf and lower it before the top comes all the way over in a nice controlled fashion.

 

[ddhlakebound]

Re hinge...
I would assume that an overly-thick hinge would occur when...
(a) the rope is pulling hard
(b) the leader is leaning a lot (off centre)


And isn't the closing of the notch pretty much the beginning of the ride - (it is just about to pop)... which is why I would think others are arguing for an earlier retreat from the cut.

What about a wider notch then? This gives more time, and the leader is more committed before the hinge pops, so less chance of a surprise (assuming the wood can handle more bending in the hinge - which would argue for a thinner hinge). Seems to work that way on the ground (felling). But I'm seeing a lot of pretty narrow notches on YouTube (like about 15 degrees).

I think hinge variables would be:
1. Thickness (determined by applied bending load - rope force/height/lean)
2. Notch angle (sets the angle of fall before notch closes and hinge pops)
3. Notch depth (sets hinge length)
4. Wood flexibility (sets maximum bend angle)

I'm not trying to be analytical, I just find the dynamics quite interesting.

The closing of the notch is the release into the ride, but the beginning of the ride is as soon as the top starts to move.

The top pushing backward on the stem as it moves forward into the notch (equal and opposite kind of thing...).

When the notch closes and hinge breaks, all that loaded energy in the stem is free to equalize again.

The 15degree notch allows far less loading, as does an 80-90degree notch (stem is already moving forward when the hinge breaks) The 45degree notch is theoretically where maximum loading will happen, and give the biggest ride.

But the 45 will break the hinge more easily, so sometimes ya need to chase with a narrow notch.

 

[fineform]

It did happen BTW...

Decided to get it over with before winter winds arrive - which they did 2 days later - whew.
Loved the full-loop flipline idea...
View attachment 189028
Tree spurs did feel a bit long, but it seemed OK because I got up by rope and only needed spurs to lock in for chainsawing.
View attachment 189029
Upper crook was at 21m, which I got first pop with home-made bigshot with archery trigger. Trigger helps!
View attachment 189030
So ended up doing plan A, prepping the cut and pulling it down with 4WD.
YouTube - ‪Monkey in a Monkey Gum‬‏

 

[ozzy42]

That saw running away at such a high idle would drive me bonkers.