Stump grinding question

[jpavao1066]

Hi everyone, I'm a new member here and would like to ask for some insight from some other people who operate their own stump grinding business. I've read through countless threads on the subject and decided to start my own. I'm 22 years old and have my own part time stump grinding business, so naturally I'm just getting started. My father owned his own tree company and sawmill, and when I was about 18 he offered me the stump grinding side of his work. He had a Rayco 1625 sj that was in need of some work. So I rebuilt/restored it and got it going. Unfortunately, two days after the first job I did with it, my dad passed away unexpectedly. After having to sell out his business, I decided to keep the grinder and try to continue on my own. But because of the loss of my dad, I also lost what would have been my main source of work. I'm learning that it is pretty difficult to build up a steady amount of work from outside sources. What I'm asking is what other people who operate a stump grinding business did or do to keep steady work flow.
So far I have made business cards and I try to hand them out or leave them where ever I can. I have a Craigslist ad also, and I have shirts or uniforms with name, logo, and phone # that myself and my worker where to look as proffessional as possible. I'm fully insured as well. I've tried emailing local landscape companies asking if they have any interest in offering subcontract work or referrals to me, and I have no problem giving a percentage back for referrals. So far not much luck there. I recently have gotten 2 local tree companies that offered to give me any stump work, and 1 landscape company. What is the best and most proffesional way of asking other businesses to refer you? Or does anyone have better ways of obtaining work? My goal is to build enough business up to be able to upgrade from my 1625 up to a Carlton 7015, and be able to takle basically any reasonable size job around here and be productive. I live in southeastern Mass so there isn't many giant sized trees, but some are a bit much for my little 1625. I just can't justify the expense of the bigger machine if I haven't established the work for it yet. Any input would be much appreciated, and sorry for such a long post.

 

[BuckmasterStumpGrinding]

Its hard to make a living off stumps.

 

[jpavao1066]

I'm not looking to make a living of stump grinding, just looking for some solid part-time work is all.

 

[BuckmasterStumpGrinding]

Get some yard signs and a facebook page for your business.

 

[CalTreeEquip]

I feel for you young man. As a father of a 23 yo myself I often wonder what he would do if I wasn't here.
Running just the 25 hp grinder is pretty limited. They are good for backyard stumps but anything accessible to a larger grinder you can't compete with. So your market share is limited and small but your advertising cost are the same as if you were a larger business. The customer does not know what kind of machine is best for their stump, they just want the stump gone. All you can do is advertise "stump grinding service" and lose half the calls to you competition. Furthermore most stump jobs are generated from tree services and they generally have there own grinders. When they don't they might turn to a sub like you but would want to go with someone better equipped. The more efficient the sub is the more they can make and the better they can serve their costumers. So what I'm getting at is your whole business model is fatally flawed.
What can you do?
1-Get a bigger machine. At least a 40 hp tow behind. The old Vermeer 665 is a 66hp tow behind that is extremely effective and pretty cheap when you can find one. As is the Vermeer 635.
2-Go to work for a tree service who dose not offer stump grinding. I mean, get into the actual business of trees. You know the drill, start at the bottom and work your way up. You may develop enough skills and contacts to branch out and start your own full service business.
3-Sell your grinder, take that money to the auction and buy another one or a chipper or truck or anything you think you can sell. Fix it up and sell it at a profit. There is always for more money in selling the tools of a trade then actually working the trade.
4-If you insist on continuing down this same path then get yourself a tail gate sign. They are by far the cheapest and most effective advertising out there. You have the undivided attention of everyone behind you for long periods of time, when they actually start thinking about you. You don't need an employee, or fancy uniforms. Simple business cards, tee shirts and a tailgate sign, that's your start.

 

[jpavao1066]

Thank you very much for the response. Makes a lot of sense, I understand I am a bit under equipped compared to most other businesses. I definitely agree on the need for a bigger machine, I was just afraid of making the plunge into putting out a larger sum of money for the production machine if I didn't have a clear view of steadier work ahead of me to pay for that machine. What you said about buying equipment to fix up and sell is definitely a great idea. I've done that on a number of trucks and machines, maybe I can work it into getting that bigger grinder. I'm not sure though if I would chance giving up my job to go work for a tree company to pick up more stump grinding work. I absolutely agree that it would be a wise choice towards getting more work, but to give up my benefits like retirement, health dental etc that I have at my current job just to supplement my side work makes me a little nervous. I guess I may be a little ambitious trying to get both to work out for me. I will look into the tailgate sign for sure, I hadn't thought of that. Thanks again for the insight, this is exactly what I was hoping to hear, opinions from you guys who have been there and have a bit more time under your belt

 

[CalTreeEquip]

What is your full time job and does it pay the bills and is there a future in it?

 

[Creeker]

Part time stump grinder with a small machine and you have a worker, crikey mate, you're lucky

To expand the business think about taking on small tree removals and trimming. Pick up skills as you go
and build up a clientelle locally. Most trees will include the stump grinding from that tree removal and away you go.
I often do trees that then give me the stumps where I can make a few $$.

You need a pole saw if you get into trees.

A tow behind grinder will limit where you can work, something like a 30 to 40hp diesel self propelled should suit you better.

At 22 you have a long time in front of you, concentrating on being reliable and doing a good job is a good start and
let the business become know for the quality of the service you give.

Lot of other things of course, good luck with your aspirations

 

[jpavao1066]

For my full time job, I am an equipment operator in a stone quarry. It pays the bills I have, but is a little tight when I factor in a house payment that I plan on having soon, along with my college loans and what not. A small business on the side would be a help as long as I am making any sort of profit. I worked for my fathers tree company since I was old enough to drag brush, so Im no stranger to hard work, and doin what it takes to do a good job and making your customers happy.
And as for the worker I have, to be a little clearer, it's a best friend who is willing to help when I get a job that would be a bit too big for one person to clean up quickly. He's a big help, and understands that I don't need a worker on ever job I take, only those really big clean ups mostly, and helping cut/split firewood on our off time.

 

[Wellsco]

This is the part of the business that sucks. This is where you get to wear holes in your shoes. You need to get to a rural area, look for the stumps you can see and bid what you can see from the road. A flyer with your information, pics of jobs, noting your insured, a business card, and a small note with a price can go along way. Most people are too busy or too lazy to chase multi bids on a tree stump. Polite and silent cold calls can make a difference. You will get lots of no's but it is a part of sales. It is the part of the business everyone hates, but the referrals from a happy new customer is sweeter than sugar!!

 

[rarefish383]

When my dad retired I didn't want to take over the business. I was tired of the 24/7 life of owning a business. I went 3 years once with no vacation. So, I went to work at UPS, now I get 6 weeks vacation. I bought a small Vermeer 630a. I still had my license and insurance, and thought that stumps would be a nice one man side gig. My cousin was also in the tree business and they did not do stumps they didn't take down. No money for the man hours when they were already backed up with real tree work, so he threw all his unwanted stumps. It was OK for a side gig that I did for about 20 years. I recently sold my old 630. Now I've found a guy with a big Rayco self propelled joy stick controlled machine. I had a $125 dollar minimum just to come out. A friend had 5 BIG Bradford Pear stumps. I told her the best I could do was $800 and it would take me all day. Before she could get back to me I sold my machine. So, to help her out, I found this other guy. He could do the job for $50 bucks a stump and it wouldn't take him much over an hour. I couldn't compete with him. He does excellent work, is in and out in a fraction of the time, now I recommend him. With a small machine, keep doing what you are doing. Try to get bigger companies to throw you work. Push in yard signs while you are working, and as mentioned above, tailgate sign. Good luck, Joe.

 

[jpavao1066]

Thank you everyone for the advice. I will definitely get yard signs and a tailgate sign. Hopefully I will get a little more steady work where I can justify taking the chance on purchasing the bigger machine. I'm more of a fan of the self propelled units that way your not limited to just easily accessible stumps. Ive been looking at some used Carlton 7015s with the 60hp deutz. Seems like a good machine for the price. Very manuverable and looks like a very productive machine also.

 

[Creeker]

Carlton went off the Duetz motor on the SP4012's if I remember correctly. Something about oil pickup in motor and the angles the stump grinder gets into when working. lot of seized motors apparently.

They went to the Kubota and all good since as far as I know.

I can't say if the Duetz motor on the 7015 had has similiar problems to the 4012 Duetz motor.

Perhaps consider if a chipper or Elevated Work Platform would make you more money and expand your business
better than spending the $$'s on a bigger stump grinder.

Unless the bigger stump grinder is going to give access to a lot of work that your current machine can't tackle then a bigger grinder
will just tie up your capital that could perhaps be better used.

Stump grinders are notoriously hungry for consumables/maintenance costs on a daily basis. Every day is an adventure with a SG and you
never know what piece of steel, rock or brick you'll smash up teeth on. I like the idea of an E.W.P. that doesn't have the high daily expenses
where you run a chainsaw/pole saw out of it and keep the consumables at a lower level.

No need to take on the big, big trees for a start, just work your way in a bit at a time.

Your mate might be handy for the groundy job.

Just tossing it round a trying to give you something to think about

ps..Should have asked you by now, but what is the size of the stumps you do at most jobs, many over 36" dia. at ground level. ?

 

[tidy]

Op, I was in a near identical situation to yourself not so long ago. The previous posts are full of excellent advice . I would say its more worthwhile for you to set up a small part time tree service- seriously consider it as there are plenty of small, basic and non technical tree removal jobs that need to get done which offer better profit margins than stump grinding, you should target this market as that is where the stumps are for the machine which you currently own. Any jobs that are too difficult you can trade with other contractors for some stump work if you want. If you become more involved in the tree industry locally you can build networks that will produce work for the larger machine in the future. that's my 2 cents

 

[jpavao1066]

Again thank you everyone for the advice, it is definitely much appreciated.
I was not aware of the reason carlton got away from the deutz and went to the Kubota. I'm guessing maybe the 7015s won't have the angle issue, being that the engine stays flat and the head pivots at the jack shaft? I could be wrong just guessing there. As for stump size, so far it seems like about half and half big stumps and small stumps. Ive done plenty of jobs where they were all 30" or less. And the last job I did was 3 big maples, the smallest being around 40." But the large surface roots were the killer, one stump had a 7' span of big roots.
I can see what you guys are saying about doing more small tree work. It might be something I could handle, especially because I still have mostly all of my fathers equipment, except the truck and chipper, which unfortunately had to be sold. I think I would have to make a trip back to my insurance agency though and see what I have to do about coverage if I start to dabble even in small jobs like that.

 

[dontbthatguy]

There is some good advice here as long with some stuff I have to disagree with but I will give my 2 cents.

I have a stump grinding side business that I operate anywhere from 5 hrs to 20hrs a week. I bought a used 1625 super junior, truck, and some hand tools and dove in. It has been a full year and I am in the black. I net anywhere from $500 on a slow month all the way to $4000 on a great month. I love owning the business though it can be a headache at times.

I will agree 100% with not doing it full time. There has been a month or 2 this summer where the phone didn't ring, and if this was my only source of income I would be hurting bad. I also warn of unforeseen maintenance issues. I had no idea how often this machine would give me heartburn. I am spending at least an hour wrenching on it a week. In a year alone I blew the motor (long story wasn't my fault and probably was a factory defect) replaced the starter, rewired the ignition switch, had to install an new stater, broke the polychain belt, and replaced a bushing. That on top of a few other issues plus constantly tightening screws, belts and switching out teeth- It wears on you a bit.

With that being said I am still making money at the end of the month. People have suggested going bigger is better. Personally I think I will always run a small stumper. I can access every stump, don't have to worry about tearing up yards and generally, they are cheaper to repair (yes I know going diesel would require less repair.)

The great thing about my 1625 is I OWN it. I don't have a payment on it so every job I do baring any breakdowns makes me money. The 1625 will grind any stump. It just make take you longer to do a 5 footer, but believe me it is possible. I have done some monsters that have take me 3 plus hours to grind. I have even told customers that hey, that is a monster, get a price from a guy with a tow behind and he will probably be a bit cheaper. IMO I would stick with the 1625 till you are positive this is the side business you want. Doing it for a year plus will give you "proof of concept" before you go spending big money on a grinder that you will have to make payments on.

I currently have a greenwheel on my 1625 which has been great. I had greenteeth before and I loved them, but the greenwheel has greatly reduced my operating costs (a new set of teeth only runs me 70 bucks or so) and seems to be a lot less wear on the machine. If you don't at least have greenteeth I would buy them tomorrow. Sharp teeth are key on these smaller machines. The GT will give you 3 cutting sides meaning you get 3 rotations out of every set! I love them. The Greenwheel will run you 1300 bucks for the upgrade, but if you are def going to do this business I would recommend it.

Almost 1/3 of my business comes from tree guys. When you see someone doing tree work, stop and ask if they grind. If not, explain who you are, ect. I have one tree guy that even bids my jobs. We have built a good relationship over the past few months and it works out well. The other two send me prospects, I bid them, they add 10-20 bucks to the price and everyone wins.

Lastly I want to echo what Welsco said. You now own a business. GET OUT THERE AND HUSTLE. Let all family and friends know you are stump grinding. ABC's Always Be (C)selling. Mention you have a business to people you haven't seen in a while. You would be surprised how many times it will result in a job. Referrals are key. Talk to customers, give them fair prices, Explain everything you do, show them pictures of you past jobs, remember their names and call them by it, and most importantly stand by your work. I have business cards from vistaprint, pens from discountmugs.com, and some flyers I made and got printed at uprinting.com. I maybe spent 300 bucks on all of that that was paid back on the first job. When you are done with the job, give the customer a few cards and a pens and ask them to refer you to family and friends. Referals are half my business. Also if you are on a job or driving around and see a stump. Go knock on the door. Leave them a card and some littureature. I would say close to 30% call me back if I leave something at the door. If I actually talk to them 9 times out of 10 I can convince them to get rid of the stump.

Okay now you have a wall of text. Sorry for rambling. If you have any questions let me know and I will be glad to share my experiences.

Good luck!

 

[jpavao1066]

Thank you that is great, sounds like exactly what I was looking to hear. You do basically what I hope to do, just trying to keep this a side business as much as possible. The wrenching on it doesn't scare me, ive always fixed my own stuff and really don't mind it. Sure beats paying someone else to do it. Interesting information on the greenwheel. I have been doing a ton of research on the greenwheel and greenteeth and have been looking for some solid feedback on them on a 1625 before I dropped the cash. Does the wheel really cut down on grinding time like they claim? I have really been considering it, seems like a good way to speed up production, even if it's a little bit, without having to go to the bigger machine yet. If not the wheel, the greenteeth are a must. I'm already sick of changing these old teeth, the greenteeth are so much simpler and faster.

 

[dontbthatguy]

Thank you that is great, sounds like exactly what I was looking to hear. You do basically what I hope to do, just trying to keep this a side business as much as possible. The wrenching on it doesn't scare me, ive always fixed my own stuff and really don't mind it. Sure beats paying someone else to do it. Interesting information on the greenwheel. I have been doing a ton of research on the greenwheel and greenteeth and have been looking for some solid feedback on them on a 1625 before I dropped the cash. Does the wheel really cut down on grinding time like they claim? I have really been considering it, seems like a good way to speed up production, even if it's a little bit, without having to go to the bigger machine yet. If not the wheel, the greenteeth are a must. I'm already sick of changing these old teeth, the greenteeth are so much simpler and faster.

When I started I had the rayco super teeth on the machine. I was no where and never liked them. Start of the spring I put on greenteeth for the first time and it was night and day. Probably cut grind time in half. I absolutely love them and would recommend them 100% if you are running the standard rayco superteeth. I can't put them against any other teeth however as I have only tried GT and super teeth. So lets say with super teeth a 2 foot stump took me 30 min with superteeth. With greenteeth I was down to 15 min if not lower. With the greenwheel, I haven't seen that same night and day grind time reduction. It might be a little faster saving me 5-10 min of actual grind time. What it does do however is save on overall stump job time. It seems to really pack the chips under the machine keeping the cutting area clear. Before as I got half way through a stump I would lift the head out and clear out what I had ground already. Now unless the stump is over 3 ft, I can just power through it. So that saves on the stop and go. The other things I like about it is my machine doesn't bog down as often. Once I adjusted to the cutting style, the RPS stay in that sweet spot and I can only imagine it is going to elongate the life of my motor. Also having 6 teeth vs 18 means a new set runs me 70 vs 150+ a set. All in all it is tough to fully recommend the greenwheel just becuase of it's price. Brand new I think it runs 1300? I picked up a demo they were selling so I got a better deal. If I had gone from superteeth right to the greenwheel I would say your grindtime would be cut in half, but coming from the greenteeth to greenwheel it wasn't as night and day as I hoped. What ever you decide to do, call greenteeth directly. Their customer service is awesome and they stand by their product. I was going to throw my used pockets for the green teeth on ebay so let me know if you are interested in that.

 

[jpavao1066]

Ok thank you, I will have to look into it a little more. I am currently running the old 1/2" square style teeth with the pockets and the adjustment gauge. Kind of a PITA to try and swap out teeth fast on a job if you break one. Plus they seem to really throw the grindings everywhere, which slows down my clean up big time. I would love to try anything else at this point, and the greenwheel sounds nice, I just have to do some figuring to justify the $1300 vs 400 for a set of teeth for my wheel. But like you said for the long run I won't be buying and sharpening so many teeth which would be a big plus.

 

[dontbthatguy]

I saw a youtube video of a guy using chip guards that seemed easy to make so I made them. 1 sheet of plywood cut into 4 sections. 4 hinges some screws and some old webbing as handles and I was in business. I use them as well as a 5 by 8 tarp to minimize my clean up. Probably saves me 20 min or so. It catches 90% of the chips. If the stump is too big for the guards I will prop up my wheelbarrow using it as a chip guard as well. I also have 2 half sheets of plywood that I will use to increase the hight of the guards if I want to protect the area better. Or I will prop the half sheets up as to protect a window close in the area. Ill link a couple pictures of what I am talking about.

and

Not sure if linking the images worked so here are the URL's: http://imgur.com/2AWgg7N and http://imgur.com/Zr34t4r . Here is the small album I am putting together. http://imgur.com/a/1UGmN