Stupid Newbie Business questions

[Rowdius]

I'm sure most of the questions have been asked many times (though searching didn't answer them all or well enough) and I know that asking them marks me for someone that probably shouldn't be taking this business risk, but here goes:

Backstory: I live in West Central Texas, and have been clearing scrub oak from my little place out in the country, selling a cord here and a cord there. Not making a lot of money, but not putting a lot of time into it either. The firewood is just a side product of having clear space on the hacienda.

I've been thinking expanding this into a little more of a business (though still just very part time.) Something less than 15-20 cords a year, and working up to that number over the first year or two. I have access to about 1000 acres of mesquite, and a lesser number of acres of oak that I can cut for free.

Currently I have been using a low end (bought at Lowes before I planned on doing more than trimming) Husqvarna 142, and an 8 lb maul. I realize that I will suffer greatly using this saw, and that this saw will not last a season. At the same time though, this saw needs to pay for the new saw, so I will have to make do for at least most of this season. I also have a 3/4 ton diesel truck and a 7000lbs, 16ft utility trailer I do not mind overloading a tiny bit.

Very few of the trees I cut are more than 24" in diameter, and most are less than 18." If it looks like I can make this work I plan on investing around $800 or so on a pro grade saw, probably around 60cc.

The few cords I've sold so far have been priced $140-$160 for a true cord, picked up, or delivered for $15. This seems like a competitive price for this area, and everyone seems very pleased by my service and the amount of wood they receive. Had one guy drive two hours to pick up a cord, and was _very_ surprised that he could only get one cord of wood on the trailer that held two "cords" from a seller in the Dallas/Fort Worth area. He was very happy, and told me that he would spread my name around up there, and also showed interest in maybe buying wood from me to sell up there. So, I might have a steady customer base if I keep up the work.

Now the questions:

1. Am I stupid to think I can come out ahead doing this? I don't expect to make much more than minimum wage (if that) until I get things rolling smoothly.

2. How much wood can a healthy, cornfed Texan cut and split (and maybe stack) in a day by hand. This would mostly be mesquite cut to 16 inch lengths, but true 128 cu. ft. cords. (and 10 hour days.) I've only been doing a few hours here and there, so I don't have an accurate guess right now. My day job has a schedule of four days on, four days off; so I can devote a bit of time to do this right.

3. At this stage of the game, is it wise (or even possible) to hire a hand to help me? I've got a friend that is needs money and has offered to help. Even if he just stacked brush and wood it would be a big help. If it is possible, would it be better to pay him by the hour, by the cord, or cut him straight into the profit?

Please be gentle.

Bonus question: What do you wish someone had told you when you first started cutting a lot of wood?

 

[Circle B MN]

Not crazy to try it given that you have most everything to do it already. See what you can cut and sell with what you have and go from there. Get a decent midsize saw, and perhaps a Fiskars to save some of the wear and tear on you that swinging the eight pounder is go to dish out. What is your target market..? Cut and split your product to meet their needs. Make sure it is something you enjoy doing, else it's just another chore and you won't last long.

 

[blackdogon57]

In that long post the thing that stuck out in my mind is that someone drove 2 hours to pick up a cord of wood. That leads me to believe that 160 a cord is way too low a price. If you plan to do only 20 cords a year to start - you need to look for customers who are willing to pay top dollar. If that guy was willing to drive 2 hours to pay 160 then you should be selling for more. Look for commercial customers who burn wood all year round. My best customer(commercial) burns 6 cords per month and pays 350 per cord. They know its not the cheapest wood but if they call me today and want wood tomorrow they know it will be there - good luck - have some rep.

 

[Rowdius]

Not crazy to try it given that you have most everything to do it already. See what you can cut and sell with what you have and go from there. Get a decent midsize saw, and perhaps a Fiskars to save some of the wear and tear on you that swinging the eight pounder is go to dish out. What is your target market..? Cut and split your product to meet their needs. Make sure it is something you enjoy doing, else it's just another chore and you won't last long.

Target market? Anyone that will buy from me Really, with the mesquite I have access to, my target market is mostly people that use smokers quite a bit. Which down here is quite a few people. Some people heat with mesquite, but it seems like that most who do use oak. That is still something I need to research more. I have more mesquite than oak, and the oak I do have access to now is 45 miles one way from where I live.

As for getting a decent saw, are you saying that I should bite that bullet now?

the thing that stuck out in my mind is that someone drove 2 hours to pick up a cord of wood. That leads me to believe that 160 a cord is way too low a price. If you plan to do only 20 cords a year to start - you need to look for customers who are willing to pay top dollar. If that guy was willing to drive 2 hours to pay 160 then you should be selling for more.

Around here $150 is a pretty average price. Once I get establish myself a bit more I might be able to raise the price, but there are too many lowballers on craigslist I think to go very much higher in this area.

Two hours to the east or three hours to the north the prices are quite a bit higher, but the prices (and wages) are lower here in West Central Texas. If I had a larger trailer I would consider trying to haul my wood to either location to tap into the larger market. What I am hoping to do right now is to establish a good name and possibly find someone that is willing to come out here on a steady basis.


Thanks for the help, having people that actually know something about firewood to bounce ideas off of will be a great help.

 

[STLfirewood]

Look for commercial customers who burn wood all year round. My best customer(commercial) burns 6 cords per month and pays 350 per cord. They know its not the cheapest wood but if they call me today and want wood tomorrow they know it will be there - good luck - have some rep.

Very true. Commercial accounts are great. They will pay more just to know they don't have to worry about the wood being there. Don't compare your price to "craigslist hacks" if your not one. Write a good ad on craigslist describing your firewood and the amount people will get. Make your ad stand out. It sounds like your to cheap. If your selling everything you cut your to cheap.

Scott

Scott

 

[LipDawg]

The Husky 142 doesn't get any love from the big dogs around here, but mine is 6 years old and still going strong, probably has 50+/- cords to its credit. You are definately going to need to get a bigger faster saw also, but don't write off your 142 so easily, it might suprise you.

 

[Bucko]

You are too cheap....I sell everything I can produce at those prices and STL is dead on...TOO CHEAP....its work....keep building on what you have...step up to a timberwolf splitter with a 4 or 6 way wedge and lift. Chase that cooking wood market...you have a good area and sounds like an ideal suppy situation...I would stay away from a processor if I had it to do over, I like mine but it isnt always ideal for the wood supply. This is why I suggested the timberwolf.

 

[Rowdius]

Very true. Commercial accounts are great. They will pay more just to know they don't have to worry about the wood being there. Don't compare your price to "craigslist hacks" if your not one. Write a good ad on craigslist describing your firewood and the amount people will get. Make your ad stand out. It sounds like your to cheap. If your selling everything you cut your to cheap.

Scott

Scott

I think the only reason I've been selling everything I've cut so far is because I've not had enough time to devote to cutting lately. Now that I've gotten some other stuff taken care of I should be able to start putting 20-30 hours into it most weeks. Now that I have seen that I can get buyers, I had thought to delete my ad for a while while I build up a stockpile, but I will try to raise my prices instead.

In no one buys, I'll know that I need to adjust the price while at the same time building a stockpile. If people still buy, then I'll be better off anyway.

Here is my first craigslist ad since trying to do more than clear some wood off my place

Seasoned or mixed mesquite firewood Anything over 6" has been split.

My firewood is cut to 16 inch lengths for today's smaller stoves and fireplaces, but I still sell only FULL half cords or FULL cords (64 and 128 cubic feet) or FULL 1/3 cord (43 Cu ft.) Don't be fooled by sellers that try to sell a stack of firewood that is 16 inches wide by 4 ft tall by 16ft long as a full cord. A full cord WILL NOT fit in a normal sized pickup truck!

Full cord $160

Half cord $85

1/3 cord $65

1/4 cord $50

Will sell smaller quantities for those that are tight on space.


Will deliver to Abilene for $15, or pick up discounts available.

Going back to my orginal questions, what is a reasonable quota of wood cut, split and stacked in a ten hour work day?

 

[Rowdius]

The Husky 142 doesn't get any love from the big dogs around here, but mine is 6 years old and still going strong, probably has 50+/- cords to its credit. You are definately going to need to get a bigger faster saw also, but don't write off your 142 so easily, it might suprise you.

I like the saw okay, though the oiler has leaked most of its life. Thick, standing dead mesquite eats the 142's lunch though. I had planned on using the 142 for limbing once I can afford a larger saw.

Oh, and I need to clarify, 20 cords is somewhat a starting point rather than a quota. Somewhat to shoot for before throwing much money at this project.

I also have a 35 hp tractor with loader (and forks) that I can use once I get finished with it on another project.

 

[STLfirewood]

Your delivery is to cheap. You will make more m,omney selling for $160 a cord picked up then you will at $175 delivered. For $15 you'll load a cord drive to deliver it and then unload it. If you'll do that for $15 I have a full time job waiting for you. Look for apartment building and target them. Lots of young people who only buy a little wood at a time(who do you think buys the gas station bundles). Sell it the by the 1/24 of a cord. That is 4 frontal sqft on a stack. Sell it for $20 delivered and stacked even if it's up stairs. That is equal to seven .75 gas station bundles. The gas station bundles would cost them $35 arouind here and they would have to carry it up. You just made it cheaper and easier for them. If you can do that now you are getting $480 for a cord of wood. Yes you have a little more work in it but look at the return. I made a dolly that holds that amount of wood. I can take it up steps pretty easy. With a helper it's real easy. These are the people that usually tip. Just an idea to think about. This doesn't work in all areas but it might in yours.

Scott

 

[Rowdius]

Your delivery is to cheap. You will make more m,omney selling for $160 a cord picked up then you will at $175 delivered. For $15 you'll load a cord drive to deliver it and then unload it. If you'll do that for $15 I have a full time job waiting for you. Look for apartment building and target them. Lots of young people who only buy a little wood at a time(who do you think buys the gas station bundles). Sell it the by the 1/24 of a cord. That is 4 frontal sqft on a stack. Sell it for $20 delivered and stacked even if it's up stairs. That is equal to seven .75 gas station bundles. The gas station bundles would cost them $35 arouind here and they would have to carry it up. You just made it cheaper and easier for them. If you can do that now you are getting $480 for a cord of wood. Yes you have a little more work in it but look at the return. I made a dolly that holds that amount of wood. I can take it up steps pretty easy. With a helper it's real easy. These are the people that usually tip. Just an idea to think about. This doesn't work in all areas but it might in yours.

Scott

I agree that $15 (esp now that diesel prices have gone up even more) is too cheap. I have been trying to load a cord straight from being split onto the trailer (saving stacking in the stockpile and then having to load on the trailer) which I thought would enable me to lower the delivery fee. Thankfully most of my orders have been people picking up.

When I was working on the homeplace I would load a pallet with sidewalls with a 1/4 cord of seasoned oak and load it on the trailer with my tractor. It worked okay. Once I ran out of seasoned oak, and tried it with fresh cut, it was too much for my little machine.

I really want a dump trailer (for more than just the firewood) but can't justify the cost yet.

What do you think would be a reasonable fee for delivery (up to about 25 miles?)

 

[Circle B MN]

Couple of pointers for your ad...

1. Drop the smear campaign.....That's what I call ads that comment negatively on other sellers products. Instead focus on the positive points of your own product. Show a picture of a true half cord, third cord, etc. of your own product.

2. Raise your product price accordingly and drop the delivery charge to FREE to the areas you service. It's a simple catch word that gets people attention.

 

[howard270]

I have been reading this forum for quite a while now and actually have some input. I live in SW OK and used to only cut mesquite for firewood. On my best day (about 8 hours cutting) I could barely get a full cord of wood from mesquite. Here the largest are about 16" diameter but only about 15 feet tall and those are rare. The reason for the low amount is due to all the limbs needing to be moved out of way to get to something worth being cut to keep. For an idea of how few and small trees are here, I cut for 4 years before I ever had to split or noodle a piece of wood down to a small enough size to fit in an insert.
If you could spend a morning cutting and have a helper come out in the afternoon just to move limbs and help stack you should have no problems getting 1 1/2 to 2 cords a day. It just takes too long to shut down the saw, move scrap limbs, fire up saw, cut, shut down and do it all again by yourself. My wife helps me now for a few hours a day and the production is almost 3X what I get by myself, but she is not needed the full time I am cutting.
As for saw, I started with a small Husky and it did well. I have now upgraded to a Stihl MS361 and it cuts much faster but I don't see much progress (when alone) due to the brush and trash limbs always in the way and needing to be moved.

 

[Billy_Bob]

Keep track of all of your costs / expenses!

That is keep receipts for everything. Gas for saws, trucks, splitter. Oil. All vehicle expenses including gas, oil, tires, insurance, maintenance, etc.

Keep track of mileage say once a month and the expenses for each month. Then yearly expenses.

Keep track of how many cords you produce each month / year.

THEN what you can do is come up with a cost per mile for your truck.
And the cost per cord for saws, splitter, etc.

And then you will be able to figure out in advance roughly what each cord is costing you. And if you will make money or lose money driving longer distances to pick-up / deliver wood. Or hire someone to help.

The key to all this is that many small expenses add up to a VERY LARGE expense after a year. A new chain for the saw. An oil / air filter for the truck. Spark plugs. Etc.

For example, if you go to a convenience store and buy a soda pop for $1, you might think that is only $1.... But do that every day and it is $365.00 a year!

And keep in mind that chainsaws do not last forever. Trucks do not last forever. At some point these will wear out and need replacement or rebuilding.

That is the "pizza delivery" trap. They give you so many cents per mile to deliver pizza, and the drivers think they are making money because it covers the cost of gas... But in some cases they are losing money due to the cost of wear and tear on their vehicle.

 

[Swamp Yankee]

From a long time, small time seller

Some thoughts

First, your plan is sound. Start small and let the business dictate what type of equipment you need. If you hit the 15 to 20 cord a year plateau, a larger saw and a splitter are a must. Finding a decent used splitter may be a possibility. You have the most important part covered, a good steady supply of wood.

As to pricing. Prices for a cord of wood vary all over the country. You need to be competitive for sure, but if you're service and product are quality customers will pay a bit more but there's a fine line to be walked between what they consider fair and / or excessive. That said, in order to get established and develop a regular customer base, you may need to be priced in the range as the Craigslist hacks. It's called buying market share, and is a very legitimate method of getting a start-up operation going, not just firewood.

Wish you the best and hope all works out for you.

Take Care

 

[Hedgerow]

Going back to my orginal questions, what is a reasonable quota of wood cut, split and stacked in a ten hour work day?[/QUOTE]

I've seen west Texas trees... I think a cord a day would be a hard days work. I just worked over a large Oak that made almost 2 cords. That probably ain't gonna happen with Mesquite, but I'm sure a cord a day is sustainable. Once you develop your system, look for that to increase. The oaks you mention, I assume are Live Oaks? Great firewood, but 45 miles travel seems a long way to go. Good luck in the biz...:msp_smile:
And don't forget the snake boots!!!

 

[Rowdius]

I've seen west Texas trees... I think a cord a day would be a hard days work. I just worked over a large Oak that made almost 2 cords. That probably ain't gonna happen with Mesquite, but I'm sure a cord a day is sustainable. Once you develop your system, look for that to increase. The oaks you mention, I assume are Live Oaks? Great firewood, but 45 miles travel seems a long way to go. Good luck in the biz...:msp_smile:
And don't forget the snake boots!!!

No, the best I've managed is one cord from 2.5 trees, and they were the largest mesquites I've had to cut. The next five to six cords I have to cut are all very large (for mesquite) old trees, with few limbs up top. They are in a cattle pen that has no brush to work around, so I'm hoping I can make some decent time on the next bit of wood.

 

[ponyexpress976]

With all the access to mesquite Id really focus on the commecial cooking accounts. Charge seperately for cooking or heating...since the cooking wood takes more effort it should cost more. 1-2 cords a day by yourself is going to be a good days work considering the size range of trees you've described.

 

[TMFARM 2009]

i would recommend a 45- 55cc saw if all you are cutting is less than 24" diam. the difference in weight will add up by the end of the day...keep the little husky for limbing and small stuff... you can get pretty good deals on 455 ranchers on feebay.. echo cs600p's are decent saws too..most selling for around $300.00 - $400.00 on feebay new from pawn shops...you can always upgrade saws later when the dollars make sense,and if they dont they will make cents...but you wont be out the $800.00 on a saw. pocket the five hundred for a rainy day.

 

[Rowdius]

I have been reading this forum for quite a while now and actually have some input. I live in SW OK and used to only cut mesquite for firewood. On my best day (about 8 hours cutting) I could barely get a full cord of wood from mesquite. Here the largest are about 16" diameter but only about 15 feet tall and those are rare. The reason for the low amount is due to all the limbs needing to be moved out of way to get to something worth being cut to keep. For an idea of how few and small trees are here, I cut for 4 years before I ever had to split or noodle a piece of wood down to a small enough size to fit in an insert.
If you could spend a morning cutting and have a helper come out in the afternoon just to move limbs and help stack you should have no problems getting 1 1/2 to 2 cords a day. It just takes too long to shut down the saw, move scrap limbs, fire up saw, cut, shut down and do it all again by yourself. My wife helps me now for a few hours a day and the production is almost 3X what I get by myself, but she is not needed the full time I am cutting.
As for saw, I started with a small Husky and it did well. I have now upgraded to a Stihl MS361 and it cuts much faster but I don't see much progress (when alone) due to the brush and trash limbs always in the way and needing to be moved.

I like the idea of having a hand come out for only half a day. I spent the night playing with the numbers, and if I can get 1.5 cords a day with a helper part of the day, I can afford to pay him a fairly decent wage, pay for my equipment and fuel, and still be making a decent wage myself. This is assuming my wood will sell for $180 a cord picked up around here.