KenJax Tree
Terraphobic
Most kids today are just plain lazy.
Teaching: Anyone elses thoughts or experiences
- Thread starter KenJax Tree
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I can sympathize with this. I am only 35 but the whole computer game craze bypassed me, by choice. Most young people only know how to "hang out", play computers, etc., it is not within their frame of reference that you may have to wake up early, use a little muscle, and possibly get dirty to get by in this life. Most of the teenage boys I see are what I would consider lazzy, goof offs and &ussies. I help coach at my sons wrestling club and I see it even there! During warm ups we were doing sets of push-ups and we had H.S. kids just laying there or quitting after one set of 20-30. J!C! I am 240 lbs and I was doing more than these slim kids.
I think kids get conditioned into thinking that somebody is going to just pay them a living to F-around on the computer all day. My neighbor is a 75 year old lady who has her daughter, SIL, 10 year old grand daughter and 15 year old grand son living with her. Do you think they would mow the grass in the summer? Hell no, they pay a crew of Mexi's to come cut the damn grass.
I think kids get conditioned into thinking that somebody is going to just pay them a living to F-around on the computer all day. My neighbor is a 75 year old lady who has her daughter, SIL, 10 year old grand daughter and 15 year old grand son living with her. Do you think they would mow the grass in the summer? Hell no, they pay a crew of Mexi's to come cut the damn grass.
KenJax Tree
Terraphobic
You just summed up my post
only 20 footers and 8 inches dia. His words were he could push those over they weren't real trees
Interesting thread, having 'lived' in Scotland for a few weeks at a time every few months from 1999 to 2006.
Recall overhearing hearing a young 'man' on a train from Linlithgow to Glasgow discuss why he was 'better off' not working - gov. 'largess' (re: - sent by the labour exchange)
No idea how Scottish unemployment/welfare works, but may be a main reason for your experiences - guys just needing to say they showed up for a job?
In a different vein, the 7-9 YO grandkids can fell an 8" alder in about 1/2 hour with a small hatchet - if the first guy you discussed could 'push those over', maybe you should have started him out with a 10 ounce (0.28 kG) hatchet, he probably could have handled that <G>. Perhaps he expected to be paid to just watch you for a few weeks to 'learn'?
I happened to be in Edinburgh in the fall of 2001 and participated in the March on The Mound. Met 2 older gentlemen and sat with them on the train back out to Linlithgow discussing current events - even 12 years ago they decried the lack of work ethiic of the younger generations in the Lothians, sounds like youthful sloth even spread to the Highlands in the last decade?
PS: Posted during time the previous grandkid and computer coment made. 13 YO GS just finished moving 2 cu yards of dirt I could not get to with the loader against the back foundation wall of a house we are building. Had a hard time getting him to get to it as the computer games, as said, are all the craze - however, mommy and daddy took away his computer time as he got a B- on his latest grade card. They can work if they are on computer restrictions!
Interesting thread, having 'lived' in Scotland for a few weeks at a time every few months from 1999 to 2006.
Recall overhearing hearing a young 'man' on a train from Linlithgow to Glasgow discuss why he was 'better off' not working - gov. 'largess' (re: - sent by the labour exchange)
No idea how Scottish unemployment/welfare works, but may be a main reason for your experiences - guys just needing to say they showed up for a job?
In a different vein, the 7-9 YO grandkids can fell an 8" alder in about 1/2 hour with a small hatchet - if the first guy you discussed could 'push those over', maybe you should have started him out with a 10 ounce (0.28 kG) hatchet, he probably could have handled that <G>. Perhaps he expected to be paid to just watch you for a few weeks to 'learn'?
I happened to be in Edinburgh in the fall of 2001 and participated in the March on The Mound. Met 2 older gentlemen and sat with them on the train back out to Linlithgow discussing current events - even 12 years ago they decried the lack of work ethiic of the younger generations in the Lothians, sounds like youthful sloth even spread to the Highlands in the last decade?
PS: Posted during time the previous grandkid and computer coment made. 13 YO GS just finished moving 2 cu yards of dirt I could not get to with the loader against the back foundation wall of a house we are building. Had a hard time getting him to get to it as the computer games, as said, are all the craze - however, mommy and daddy took away his computer time as he got a B- on his latest grade card. They can work if they are on computer restrictions!
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My teaching method is simple but effective,
Start with the easy stuff, pulling chokers, chasing on the landing, bumping knots etc... give em plenty of supervision and make it clear that questions are a good thing.
Show em how its done, I.E. do it yourself the first time, turn em loose on it for a while, then when the plan changes ask em what would they do? If its a good response you have a keeper, if its a EH i don't know... well...
Next step once they get the basics is to stand by and watch for awhile, grunt and cough and and clear my throat in a pointed way fallowed by "I wouldn't do that..." when you notice them doing something wrong, most times this trick works really good make the person stop and think about what it is they are about to do wrong without simply giving them the answer. People learn better when they figure it out themselves. (note I've found that hollering and screaming does not teach anything other than how to holler and scream back...)
Eventually they stop coming to me with questions... until they get some weird stuff that is just plain crazy... then I usually have to ask questions too...
The big thing is it takes a little patience... on both sides. John Q rookie isn't going to jump out of the crummy knowing exactly what to do at all times, Hel there probably scared poo-less (at least they should be...)
I've said before in other threads that there are only a handful of kids that I have worked with that have a chance, I think part of that is that the rest of them have been burned by crap jobs flipping burgers etc. with even crappier bosses so when I ask them to do something (notice I asked) they instantly think why should I... Most of the honest thinking jobs have been removed by computers, so all people are good at doing anymore is repetition for 8-10 hours a day... so when they come talk to me be it machining or logging, and I ask them how would they do it, they really don't know cause they have never had an original thought.
I'll stop ranting now... for a little while anyway
Start with the easy stuff, pulling chokers, chasing on the landing, bumping knots etc... give em plenty of supervision and make it clear that questions are a good thing.
Show em how its done, I.E. do it yourself the first time, turn em loose on it for a while, then when the plan changes ask em what would they do? If its a good response you have a keeper, if its a EH i don't know... well...
Next step once they get the basics is to stand by and watch for awhile, grunt and cough and and clear my throat in a pointed way fallowed by "I wouldn't do that..." when you notice them doing something wrong, most times this trick works really good make the person stop and think about what it is they are about to do wrong without simply giving them the answer. People learn better when they figure it out themselves. (note I've found that hollering and screaming does not teach anything other than how to holler and scream back...)
Eventually they stop coming to me with questions... until they get some weird stuff that is just plain crazy... then I usually have to ask questions too...
The big thing is it takes a little patience... on both sides. John Q rookie isn't going to jump out of the crummy knowing exactly what to do at all times, Hel there probably scared poo-less (at least they should be...)
I've said before in other threads that there are only a handful of kids that I have worked with that have a chance, I think part of that is that the rest of them have been burned by crap jobs flipping burgers etc. with even crappier bosses so when I ask them to do something (notice I asked) they instantly think why should I... Most of the honest thinking jobs have been removed by computers, so all people are good at doing anymore is repetition for 8-10 hours a day... so when they come talk to me be it machining or logging, and I ask them how would they do it, they really don't know cause they have never had an original thought.
I'll stop ranting now... for a little while anyway
kentishman
David
I've had a few work experience people in the past come out with me for several weeks. Mostly from a local ish college, studying forestry and they have to do some work experience for their course. They tend to have just done their CS30/31 (qualifications you legally need here to use a chainsaw for monetary gain, 30 is cross cutting and 31 is felling small trees, up to 15" dbh). For some reason I ended up mostly with older students, 30+. They start off stacking wood (I do short wood cutting and forwarder) and hand burning of top when that was a thing. To me, you have to learn to walk in a wood, picking up your feet, not tripping over, and getting the feel of the wood. Then I'd move them on to a bit of cutting and by the end they could be doing their own bit without much supervision. This is with the good ones!
One more normal student age guy quit after a day, claiming it was too painful! Years ago I did a lot of bundles of sapling birch for racecourse jumps, and carrying them 50 yards or so was too much for him, they were digging into his side or something. Another guy was 50ish, too old to start doing this full time I'd say, and he wasn't interested at all in learning, just needed his work experience box ticked off. I taught him nothing, barely spoke to him, just used him for donkey work and gave him a very low score on his evaluation, for turning up for work experience for me not wanting to learn anything about what I do, when I could have been teaching someone who was interested and might have come to work in the industry (which round here, like most places I think, is nearly all older guys who got into it in better times in the 70s and 80s).
So a mixed bag. If someone wants to learn and can pick something up after being told once I want to teach them. If not stop wasting my time!
One more normal student age guy quit after a day, claiming it was too painful! Years ago I did a lot of bundles of sapling birch for racecourse jumps, and carrying them 50 yards or so was too much for him, they were digging into his side or something. Another guy was 50ish, too old to start doing this full time I'd say, and he wasn't interested at all in learning, just needed his work experience box ticked off. I taught him nothing, barely spoke to him, just used him for donkey work and gave him a very low score on his evaluation, for turning up for work experience for me not wanting to learn anything about what I do, when I could have been teaching someone who was interested and might have come to work in the industry (which round here, like most places I think, is nearly all older guys who got into it in better times in the 70s and 80s).
So a mixed bag. If someone wants to learn and can pick something up after being told once I want to teach them. If not stop wasting my time!
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This story was told to me.
There was a thinning/fire crew and for the first time, they hired a couple of girls to be on the crew. Of course, we women are not expected to be able to run a chainsaw for very long by most guys. These girls were competitive swimmers and one was the daughter of a logger. They started thinning alongside the boys and boys being boys were not about to let any girl outdo them. According the the foreman, the girls were getting as much, if not more production than the guys, but overall, his crew had never thinned so many acres. He was going to have a mixed crew from then on, because of the increase.
One place where I worked, when a ATV couldn't be used, two young women who were long distance runners were the lighters on controlled burns. They could move and had the stamina.
Perhaps you should recruit some of us from the other 50% of the population??
There was a thinning/fire crew and for the first time, they hired a couple of girls to be on the crew. Of course, we women are not expected to be able to run a chainsaw for very long by most guys. These girls were competitive swimmers and one was the daughter of a logger. They started thinning alongside the boys and boys being boys were not about to let any girl outdo them. According the the foreman, the girls were getting as much, if not more production than the guys, but overall, his crew had never thinned so many acres. He was going to have a mixed crew from then on, because of the increase.
One place where I worked, when a ATV couldn't be used, two young women who were long distance runners were the lighters on controlled burns. They could move and had the stamina.
Perhaps you should recruit some of us from the other 50% of the population??
timberland ts
ArboristSite Operative
For the last fifteen yrs ive been teaching newbies. Ive gotten pretty good at weeding out the warm bodies. When i worked for a big company out of six crews we went through 23 guys in a year. Most worked a week and left they met there probation or unemployment requirement. There are people who what to work and learn. These are the ones you teach and explain things to the others you try to make productive and not get hurt. Like others have said startthem slow and try to spend the time. You want someone who wants a carrer not just a pay check.
Oldtimer
Addicted to ArboristSite
Impossible to teach those who are sure they already know.
HuskStihl
Chairin'em for the sound
I would, if I could find any women who would brush their teeth and shower once in a while, I mean honestly, men can't have a total monopoly on personal hygiene:msp_wink:
McCulloch1-52
ArboristSite Guru
If he was a professional why did he not teach him? :msp_confused:
J
jrcat
Guest
I started with a shovel and a hand saw in my hands. It took alot of years of shoveling and cutting before my father would let me run our little backhoe or a chainsaw. Then when I was out of school it was back to shoveling for a dirt contractor for 2 years before I was allowed to run an excavator. 15 years later I still have much to learn and I am the first to admit to it. Kids (and even some adults) these days figure that an income is owed to them just because they happen to exist on this earth, not earned. I have 2 young daughters and they help with chores and the like around home simply because they have to. I reward their hard work with certain things they would like. The more they want the harder they have to work for it and they know this even at 8 and 9 years old.
J
jrcat
Guest
I went to a school where 90% of the students there had parents that made 6 digit figures for income. My parents were lucky to make half of what they made. One thing I have noticed the media speaks of is "the ever widening income gap". HELLO that gap has been there for years. It has just recently had more attention brought to it. Now with those things being said. I have also noticed that a majority of the people I went to school with are either still well to do or utter and complete failures in both life and with money. The ones that did well ... their parents made them earn their keep and taught them the value of money and work. The other group..well they spent their money on toys and nose candy. Even still some families with little income have trouble with the younger generations not wanting to do anything. Its a sad state of affairs.
I recently went to my local branch of FORCON. They gave me a 2 hour lecture on how there is very little, (almost none) new blood coming into the forestry industry here in western ny and northwest pa. People that want to work are few and far between.
I recently went to my local branch of FORCON. They gave me a 2 hour lecture on how there is very little, (almost none) new blood coming into the forestry industry here in western ny and northwest pa. People that want to work are few and far between.
Let's look at some facts. Wages are the same as they were in the 1980s. There is little job security--at least in these parts. No pay during high fire danger, no pay during a big storm, and threats of losing more ground due to environmental concerns.
If you aren't on a piece of equipment, the work can be brutal. Yet, few outfits offer any benefits. Do you?
There used to be large companies with union crews in the woods. No more.
I live in a timber community. Most parents, who care, encourage their kids to go onto more schooling or some kind of training. They don't want them in the logging industry right out of high school because it can be a dead end or they end up on disability. One family, with deep roots in logging, is requiring their kids to get college degrees. Then they can decide what to do.
This article is a good one. I was trying to look for one that was written on changes that folks need to make to attract and keep today's younger generation on the job. It was in Logger's World a few years ago.
Instead of slamming the younger generation, maybe you need to change the way you treat them. Read on...
TimberLine Magazine Article - CASUALTIES OF MODERNITY: Logging Companies Strive to Replace Their Aging Workforce
If you aren't on a piece of equipment, the work can be brutal. Yet, few outfits offer any benefits. Do you?
There used to be large companies with union crews in the woods. No more.
I live in a timber community. Most parents, who care, encourage their kids to go onto more schooling or some kind of training. They don't want them in the logging industry right out of high school because it can be a dead end or they end up on disability. One family, with deep roots in logging, is requiring their kids to get college degrees. Then they can decide what to do.
This article is a good one. I was trying to look for one that was written on changes that folks need to make to attract and keep today's younger generation on the job. It was in Logger's World a few years ago.
Instead of slamming the younger generation, maybe you need to change the way you treat them. Read on...
TimberLine Magazine Article - CASUALTIES OF MODERNITY: Logging Companies Strive to Replace Their Aging Workforce
J
jrcat
Guest
Well I apologize as I am not trying to bash the younger generations. In NY we have what is called GOL Game Of Logger training. Which is meant to train younger loggers the ins and outs of safety and to keep older guys trained in new techniques. New York Logger Training - NYLT Workshops
I was merely trying to add my view on what I see with some of the younger generation not all. To add to the troubles loggers face (at least here in NY) it is getting very cost prohibitive to be in the business anymore. Comp rates of $90 per $100. That is INSANE. I would not want my daughters to go right into this field without seeing the outside world first. There is more to offer than logging. But if this industry is what they choose then so be it. I will say that video games, computers, and tv are not their main focus in life, nor will I allow it to be.
I was merely trying to add my view on what I see with some of the younger generation not all. To add to the troubles loggers face (at least here in NY) it is getting very cost prohibitive to be in the business anymore. Comp rates of $90 per $100. That is INSANE. I would not want my daughters to go right into this field without seeing the outside world first. There is more to offer than logging. But if this industry is what they choose then so be it. I will say that video games, computers, and tv are not their main focus in life, nor will I allow it to be.
StihlKiwi
ArboristSite Guru
Seems to me, from reading the article Slowp posted, that it's not just the young guys not getting any benefits. Busting your ass for the same pay for 25 years and few benefits isn't an attractive option unless you really love what you do. Couple that with an older generation who love to harp on about how kids these days take everything for granted and don't know how to work hard and where's the incentive to gt into forestry?
J
jrcat
Guest
I cut and skid some on the side of my "day job". I also build roads and clean up logging roads and landings on my spare time with my little TD8E dresser. I am trying to get into logging full time. It's just very costly , but it's what I love. Being out in the woods. There are a lot of jobs out there that do not offer health insurance and thousands upon thousands of people in this country and other countries will never know what it is like to have it. The company I work for offers it, but I choose not to have it. My daughters have it and I pay for it every month. My current employer invested in me rather significantly to train me to operate and maintain our "fleet" of morbark chippers. I give it my all when I am on the job and I am grateful for the chances I am given. It is not to often that one gets a chance to operate and maintain half million dollar machines. Logging and forestry is a labor of love and a narrow niche to be in and sometimes a very slippery slope. Man or Woman , if you love it then there is opportunities abound if you are willing to work.
J
jrcat
Guest
Of all people to suggest this to someone, My lawyer told me I should take a job at SKF or the local Cummins plant just to have benefits. but the starting pay at either place is dismal, unless you have a degree or 2 and many years of experience in one particular field. The job market is dismal as a whole. And it is not just logging that has either seen a decrease in wages or stayed the same for many years. My grandfather retired from conrail and tried to get my brother and myself into the rail road and meet with little success. The starting pay was horrible and the years it would take to earn even a fraction of what my grandfather did was shocking as well. That was even if would could get in. As for myself now I am taking a layoff for a month as I would not go to alabama with one of our chippers. The money was good....very good infact but I will not leave my daughters for any major length of time.
StihlKiwi
ArboristSite Guru
You're right, it certainly isn't a new thing. I just feel it's sometimes overplayed, which is hardly ideal in a industry with an average age in the forties that is struggling to attract new blood. I'm not saying that the new kids should be pandered to, there's a bit of an attitude shift needed on both sides i reckon.
As for working in something that you don't like, plenty of people do that. 40-50 hours a week of the daily grind so that you can spend the weekend doing what you enjoy seems to work just fine for many
As for working in something that you don't like, plenty of people do that. 40-50 hours a week of the daily grind so that you can spend the weekend doing what you enjoy seems to work just fine for many
StihlKiwi
ArboristSite Guru
Ha I'd happily trade a weekend off for something to do at the moment. Four days off over easter doesn't exactly feel like a holiday when you're on standby and can't be more than 15 mins from the firestore. Even yesterday when it was raining :bang:
