The right thing?

[TREETX]

I have a delimma/question. I bid this job for a condo HOA. The bid for the work at 1" dead wood was 13.5K. I am not dealing direct with them, rather through the landscape maint company who is contracting to me for a cut off the top.

They come back and say 5.5K is all they can pay me. I say cool, but the scope has to change to 2.5 inch dead w/no mistletoe and no quibbling at the end of the job - when I say it is done, it is done. They say yes, that will work.

I send them (landscape co) back the contract from the HOA and say change it from their .25" dead to 2.5" dead and no mistletoe. Then they say no, no need to change, lets just do it with out changing the specs, they (HOA) won't know the difference.

Those of you who clean live oaks regularly know there is a big difference between .25" and 2.5". The other species is cedar elm.

The landscape maint co is not paying anything up front so the risk is all mine.

I am meeting them(maint co) on Monday and walking away from it if the specs are not changed on the contract w/half of the money up front. That is the right thing to do isn't it??

They did this a year ago when I bid 30K. They(maint co) came back and said 17K and just not so detailed with the pruning. I did it and then the HOA came back saying they expected more pruning for the 30K they paid. I felt screwed and feel the weenie coming again.

I just need a little reassurance to follow my gut instinct.

Your thoughts would be welcomed.

Nathan



SCOPE AND NATURE OF WORK

Contractor agrees to furnish labor and materials to complete the work described herein according to the following specifications. All work is guaranteed to be as specified. All work performed will be completed in a workmanlike manner according to standard tree pruning practices.

A. Trim, cut, and remove dead wood from trees throughout the property including trees in the pool area.

B. Remove all dead wood and undesireable limbs larger than 1/4 inch.

C. Trim branches back to a minimum of 3' away from the roofs and sides of the buildings.

D. Remove all mistletoe and any other parasites from the trees.

E. Use sterilized cutting equipment and treat all wounds on Live Oaks over 1" in diameter.

F. Trees in the pool area need to be trimmed away from the pool itself.

G. Contractor shall be willing to contract with individual homeowners for any tree work done inside their patio area. Homeowners shall be billed directly for any costs involved.

H. Compensation for this work will be $5,500.00 plus tax (add tree work in the pool area).



_____________________________ ________________________
CONTRACTOR

 

[treeman82]

Nate, in my business I try to deal directly with the person who makes the decisions and of course pays the bills. In this case that would be the HOA president. I try not to deal with middle men in my dealing with customers. This makes it a lot easier for me to straighten out any problems. Also should they decide to stiff me for a good chunk of change... I know who is getting the load of junk wood... or if the money amount is enough... who I am telling my friend about

 

[TREETX]

Amen 82, that is why I feel so uncomfortable, the 3rd party mucks things up if they are not honest. That, and they remove my ability to firmly establish an order of operations/objectives with the end consumer.

 

[treeman82]

Nate, who refers more work to who? Do you refer more work to the landscape maintenance company, or do they refer more work to you? If you refer more work to them... then you should have a bargaining chip in saying "I want to deal with the customer directly, thank you for your referral." If they refer you more work... then I would just say to think about it... and make sure you know where the owner of the maintenance company lives!

 

[Tom Dunlap]

Maybe I'm missing something, can you explain this:

They did this a year ago when I bid 30K. They(maint co) came back and said 17K and just not so detailed with the pruning. I did it and then the HOA came back saying they expected more pruning for the 30K they paid. I felt screwed and feel the weenie coming again.

So...the HOA paid 30k based on the orininal bid of more detailed pruning. The maintenance company paid you 17k. Where did the other 13k go? Is that a typical commission?

Sounds like the same setup this year.

 

[treeclimber165]

Nate,
The landscraper is trying to shaft you, and make money off you while you are stuck doing work for less than half price. I'd run away from this dude. Do not enter into any agreement with him, now or in the future.
Perhaps a note dropped off to the HOA president concerning the landscraper's proposal to you might be in order as well. Who knows what the HOA budget is for treework? The scraper isn't telling you the whole truth.

 

[TREETX]

On the 30K job they belly ached about how they weren't making anything off of the job and just needed to get it done for the HOA, so please drop to 17K. BAM!!! Weenie.

Yeah, I think I am running. Or rather contacting the HOA directly. Otherwise it is not worth the stress. Especially not when my plate is full as it is.

Low end tree maintenance is not my target clientele or mission statement. I have made a niche doing high end residential work for a fair fee and delivering 110%. Low end production is not where I want to go.

Thanks for your input. A downside of being self employed is that you are often left alone in decision making without the sounding board available in larger organizations.

Thanks

 

[Jumper]

Walk Away

You do not need this landscape company as a client. Speak directly to HOA. I have had some dealings with condo corps and we always dealt direct with them, leave the middleman out. This guy scooped a $13K profit off the top from the way I look at things.

 

[Toddppm]

I would have busted him if the HOA came back to me for the performance last time since he took 13k!!

 

[treeman82]

I am sorry, I didn't realize that the landscraper screwed you over for $13,000 Nate. I think if the guy had approached me with the same scenario 2 years in a row I would try my best to scare the living bajesus out of him. Ie; when he is there have a BIG chain saw going full idle and your chipper running right by your side. Let's see the idiot try to screw you over then. Then again... if you are working for high end clientelle, I am sure you have met a few people who specialize in behavior modification. In short... to hell with that loser. Try to get the condo account on your own. Tell him to go shove it up his you know what.

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

I would feel screwed too, letting myself get talked into things. I think we all have been there.

From the ethical point of veiw, the HOC is the landscape companies client. Cutting them out is not a good thing.

I would insist in changing the contract specifications that you specified, calmly bringing up the previouse problem in a nonacusitory way. (why do they need a 50% margine on a contract they are only billing????) Also stipulate that they will compensate for any return visits that go beynd the verbiage in the contract.

I hate HOC for the most part, you need to have clear and concise contract language, I've only had one that I realy enjoyed working with.

 

[geofore]

right?

If you go without the changes and the HOA sues this year because the specs were not followed who does the extra work to meet the specs and who pays? What is your liability in this? Does not look like you covered your a$$ if you sign the contract with out the changes you asked for. Did you ask the landscaper in writing for the changes and keep a copy of your request and his answer?
If in the worst case, you would end up doing a lot of freebie work to cover the specs for the HOA contract. Just because he tells you the HOA won't notice doesn't mean he will make up the difference if they do notice. Now if he puts it in writing he will pay the difference you are covered but you still look bad because it looks like you and not him tried to pass off bad work. What's your reputation worth?

 

[NeTree]

Nate,

I'd go deal directly with the HOA. Better $ for you, and no middle-man BS. That weenie is definitely coming at you....RUN.....

 

[Stumper]

Trying to bypass the mainenance co. would be questionable ethically. The Maintenance company asking you to drop your price so low while they charge the original bid price is disgusting but at the same time "fair" if you agree to it. I WOULD NOT sign a contract for .25 inch deadwood when the price is what you are willing to do 2.5 and larger dead wood for! In fact I would never sign a .25 inch deadwood contract on any large tree-by the time you finish picking out the dead twigs others will have died!!!!

13.5K down to 5.5K Hmmmm. I think I would say "No way! I'll drop to 8.7K if we go from 1"+ dead to 2.5"+dead." You saw the job and said okay to 5.5 at 2.5" so I won't second guess you-- but don't sign a contract with the wrong description!
My.000002 cents.

 

[Newfie]

"From the ethical point of veiw, the HOC is the landscape companies client. Cutting them out is not a good thing."

It doesn't seem ethical to let the LC take a whopping chunk off the top leaving the HOC thinking they are paying you all that money. We are talking about almost 20K in commission for these crooks and they have done dick except probably place all the blame on you and give the impression that you were paid ALL of the money. I would go directly to the HOC and lay it out for them. Either they have an insider splitting a kickback with the LC or they are in the dark and would probably gladly be willing to terminate the LC after finding out about his fraudulent behavior. You'll be gone or he'll be gone. Either case will be better than the current.

NEVER,EVER sign a contract with incorrect specs and terms, otherwise what is the point. It's no sweat off the LC if the HOC figures out the "difference" and compels you to complete the contractually aggreed work despite what ever "understanding" you had.

Do you normally give customers 60 - 70 % discounts?

 

[Oxman]

Wondering if stumper and jps could explain the "bad" ethics of going directly to the hoa which writes the check. sounds like dealing w the landscapers even knowing how they gouge and lie would be more ethically questionable.

Cutting out the middleman happens all the time in other business, why not this one?

notoxman

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

Going to the HOA directly would be like a climber going behind his boss's back and telling customers he will come back another day and work for cheaper.

 

[Dan Flinn]

I certainly haven't dealt with numbers that have to have a "k" beside them, but I do know that the tree work at this location would not have even been an option had it not been for the landscape company.

Dan

 

[NeTree]

Originally posted by Newfie
"From the ethical point of veiw, the HOC is the landscape companies client. Cutting them out is not a good thing."

It doesn't seem ethical to let the LC take a whopping chunk off the top leaving the HOC thinking they are paying you all that money. We are talking about almost 20K in commission for these crooks and they have done dick except probably place all the blame on you and give the impression that you were paid ALL of the money. I would go directly to the HOC and lay it out for them. Either they have an insider splitting a kickback with the LC or they are in the dark and would probably gladly be willing to terminate the LC after finding out about his fraudulent behavior. You'll be gone or he'll be gone. Either case will be better than the current.

In most cases, I'd say that going over the LC's head like this would be "back-stabbing", but in this particular case at least, I think Newfie called it spot-on. What they are doing seems at best border-line legal, but is certainly VERY wrong ethically. People like that SHOULD be called to scrutiny. I'd rather pi$$ off the LC than have my name associated with price tinkering. Sooner or later the HOA will figure out something fishy is happening, and I'd rather be on the handle end of the axe than the sharp one.

Just my ever humble opinion.

 

[treeclimber165]

Originally posted by Mike Maas
Going to the HOA directly would be like a climber going behind his boss's back and telling customers he will come back another day and work for cheaper.

I disagree. Your boss is performing many functions including seeing to it that you have full time work. To take from your boss is biting the hand that feeds you.
The landscraper is a leech, sucking from a willing tree service in order to shaft his customer AND the tree service. There is no service or product provided, only leeching from both ends to snatch 2/3 of the money. Both the customer and the tree service lose. Scraping off the leech (and even grinding it under your heel) is not backstabbing, it is just eliminating a bloodsucker.