Timber Framing w/Pine Questions

[TSRuff]

On the 160 acres I own in Northern Minnesota there are a couple of very large (40"+ x 75' of usable trunk) pines standing fairly close to where I would ultimately like to build a cabin. Since this is a pretty remote location (15 miles down a logging trail, rowboat across a river with a 4-wheeler on board, then 3 miles down a "trail") these seem like the perfect material to use for building a small timber frame cabin so I can avoid having to transport a huge amount of material.

My dilemma is that although I have milled lots of wood with my Alaskan, I have always cut it into boards for building furniture, I've never cut beams or anything bigger than a 4x4 post. I have no idea how to go about drying the wood... do I drop the trees, debark them and let them sit for a year? Do I cut them into rough beams and stack them, finishing them off once they have dried out a bit? Is it better to cut them in the winter when the sap isn't running?

Any and all help and insight you can provide is much appreciated. The building project is a couple of years off, but if I need to get out and put the trees on the ground I'd like to get started ASAP. Thanks...

 

[FELLNORTH]

i am no expert here, but i would say if it is for a cabin, drop it mill it and use it right away. it will dry in place.
good luck to ya

 

[mtngun]

do I drop the trees, debark them and let them sit for a year? Do I cut them into rough beams and stack them, finishing them off once they have dried out a bit? Is it better to cut them in the winter when the sap isn't running?

The building project is a couple of years off, but if I need to get out and put the trees on the ground I'd like to get started ASAP. Thanks...

In the ideal world, trees are milled shortly after they fall, then the boards or beams are carefully stacked to dry for a year or two.

In the real world, we mill the trees whenever we have the opportunity to do so.

It is going to take quite a while to CSM enough beams to build a cabin. You might want to do the milling one summer, stack and cover the beams, and then erect the cabin the next summer. Even that may be an ambitious schedule.

I'm curious if you have equipment to move these trees and beams around, but don't want to hijack the topic.

Good luck, and post pictures when the time comes !

 

[gemniii]

On the 160 acres I own in Northern Minnesota there are a couple of very large (40"+ x 75' of usable trunk) pines standing fairly close to where I would ultimately like to build a cabin. Since this is a pretty remote location (15 miles down a logging trail, rowboat across a river with a 4-wheeler on board, then 3 miles down a "trail") these seem like the perfect material to use for building a small timber frame cabin so I can avoid having to transport a huge amount of material.

This seems like an ideal application for an Oscar 18" http://www.hud-son.com/bandmills.htm
or it's less expensive HF version. Make large cants with the Alaskan, thin lumber with the Oscar. The Oscar weighs a little over 400lbs TOTAL

 

[hermit]

Research, research the wood will shrink as it dries for a long time. The reason I say this is I seen a log house that shrank until it broke the windows and doors wouldn't hardly close, you must allow for this when you build. No it wasn't mine !! So be sure to figure how much room to allow. I have heard some allow up to 6". The longer you let them dry the better.

 

[rarefish383]

I saw a special on building a cabin green and they had a couple good pointers on setteling and shrinkage. They left about 4 inches over the doors and windows with insulation that would just squish down. What I thought was really cool was how they hung the cabinets in the kitchen. Behind the cabinets they bolted 2X4's to the wall, One bolt at the top and one at the bottom. They made an elongated slot for the bottom bolt hole, so as the logs settled the bolt just slid in the groove, and the cabinets stayed stable, Joe.

 

[SilverBox]

On the 160 acres I own in Northern Minnesota there are a couple of very large (40"+ x 75' of usable trunk) pines standing fairly close to where I would ultimately like to build a cabin. Since this is a pretty remote location (15 miles down a logging trail, rowboat across a river with a 4-wheeler on board, then 3 miles down a "trail") these seem like the perfect material to use for building a small timber frame cabin so I can avoid having to transport a huge amount of material.

My dilemma is that although I have milled lots of wood with my Alaskan, I have always cut it into boards for building furniture, I've never cut beams or anything bigger than a 4x4 post. I have no idea how to go about drying the wood... do I drop the trees, debark them and let them sit for a year? Do I cut them into rough beams and stack them, finishing them off once they have dried out a bit? Is it better to cut them in the winter when the sap isn't running?

Any and all help and insight you can provide is much appreciated. The building project is a couple of years off, but if I need to get out and put the trees on the ground I'd like to get started ASAP. Thanks...

Shrinkage isn't an issue for framing if you have vertical framing, only if your stacking logs like in a log cabin. A stick frame out of 2x and 4x pine (be sure to have a good foundation), you can use green wood (this is what you buy at the lumber yard green doug fir or SYP is pretty common thruout the US), nail it on as soon as it comes off the mill.

Wood doesn't really shrink lengthwise, ~4-6% radially depending on the wood, for smaller lumber 2x and 4x that shrinkage is extremely minimal, now if your going to make wide planking for flooring you will want to let that dry as 5% in a 12" wide board is pretty significant, 1/2" or so.

For siding run some blocking on your vertical 2xs and go board and bat, put bit enuf bats so that when the boards shrink, the bats will still cover.

 

[Manuka Jock]

I saw a special on building a cabin green and they had a couple good pointers on setteling and shrinkage. They left about 4 inches over the doors and windows with insulation that would just squish down. What I thought was really cool was how they hung the cabinets in the kitchen. Behind the cabinets they bolted 2X4's to the wall, One bolt at the top and one at the bottom. They made an elongated slot for the bottom bolt hole, so as the logs settled the bolt just slid in the groove, and the cabinets stayed stable, Joe.

That method is used here by a 'log' house building company ,Fraemohs Homes. Their 'logs' have a double tongue and groove , 3-5 years is the estimated compression time
It works ok .

For air dried timber , the rule of thumb here is 1" per year .

 

[losttheplot]

Cutting beams is pretty straight forward, Just take lots of time getting the sides at 90 degrees to each other.

If they dont come out perfectly there are ways to lay out your joints to allow for imperfections.

You could also use an axe and hew some smaller trees by hand, might save packing sawmills and gas into the bush.
Couple chisels, mallet and a bit and brace and you could enjoy nature while you work.
Enjoy the journey as well as the destination so to speak

May work well to put the heart/pith in the center at both ends.
If they are big diameter you can research what is the best way to cut free of heart beams with the species you have. Or use the outsides of the log for floor boards etc and get a beam from the center.

late winter is a good time to cut wood as there will be less sap in them.
There are ways to cut your joints to allow for shrinkage.

The best thing you could do is type something like timber frame discussion group into a search engine.

There are some good books available on the topic (timber framing, not search engines that is ). Some of them have plans for small frames in them. You may want to search books by Tedd Benson,Steve Chappell or Jack Sobon.

Think about designing your frame( within the size of the trees ) before you cut the timbers, that way you will know what size to cut them.

If you really want to get into it you can learn about span tables, grain run out and knot size.

You have lots of time to do research the more you put into the project the more you will get out of it.

 

[Mike Van]

TS, a few tips here. Before you drop a tree, have a plan. Will you make a true timberframe? If so, wet beams don't matter. They are 10X easier to cut, bore, chisel, etc when wet. Siding needs to be dry [or board & batten] to allow for the shrinkage. Floor & roof boards too. By having a plan, you'll know what to make, so many 6x6x12, or 8x8x 16 - whatever. You don't want to make 12x12's and then re-cut, too much extra work. Don't buck the trees into logs without this plan, as 12 footers are pretty useless if you need 16's. Pick up a good timberframing book or two, read about what you're getting into. There's some special timberframing tools that make the job easier. You'll want something other than pine for sills too - ? Or it's gotta have a lot of stone under it to keep it dry. White pine doesn't hold nails well. Good luck

 

[Manuka Jock]

With siding , weatherboards , board and batten etc , keep in mind that timber generally cups away from the heart of the tree .
Machine and place your boards accordingly

 

[Daninvan]

40" pines?? I would try to leave such big trees and cut up some smaller specimens instead. Unless 40" trees are common in Minnesota.

That being said, if the pine beetle is on its way to your neighbourhood I guess you may as well cut them up.

 

[TSRuff]

40" pines?? I would try to leave such big trees and cut up some smaller specimens instead. Unless 40" trees are common in Minnesota.

That being said, if the pine beetle is on its way to your neighbourhood I guess you may as well cut them up.

This is exactly why I was looking at the big pines standing there... we have seen a huge loss on our property already from the beetles, mostly going after the smaller trees but it is only a matter of time before they arrive at the big ones.

40" pines are not common, but we have a stand of them (4 acres or so) which were not logged with the rest of the land in 1935. There are probably 60-70 trees that size in the stand.

Thanks to everyone for the feedback on the timber frame. Looks like I should head up there in a month or so and get some beams cut.

I've already got a good plan (my father is an architect) and a complete list of components that I need (12 8x8s 10' long, etc.). Will post pics once I make it up there!

 

[TSRuff]

In the ideal world, trees are milled shortly after they fall, then the boards or beams are carefully stacked to dry for a year or two.

In the real world, we mill the trees whenever we have the opportunity to do so.

It is going to take quite a while to CSM enough beams to build a cabin. You might want to do the milling one summer, stack and cover the beams, and then erect the cabin the next summer. Even that may be an ambitious schedule.

I'm curious if you have equipment to move these trees and beams around, but don't want to hijack the topic.

Good luck, and post pictures when the time comes !

We've got a Bobcat T250 with forks on it and during the winter the friendly local loggers (ALWAYS make friends with your local loggers!) have been more than accomodating in the past with helping us move some of the bigger stuff around (they usually have a D5 Cat or similar). I know that the big pieces sure won't be lifted by the Bobcat, but we can probably roll them around enough to get them in position, and it will certainly come in handy for moving the beams and stacking once cut.

I figure that given my setup I can probably process one of those trees in a week with a couple of guys helping, so I think that will be the plan. Now whether it is this winter or next is the question... time to start scheduling!

 

[gwiley]

We've got a Bobcat T250 with forks on it and during the winter the friendly local loggers (ALWAYS make friends with your local loggers!) have been more than accomodating in the past with helping us move some of the bigger stuff around (they usually have a D5 Cat or similar). I know that the big pieces sure won't be lifted by the Bobcat, but we can probably roll them around enough to get them in position, and it will certainly come in handy for moving the beams and stacking once cut.

I figure that given my setup I can probably process one of those trees in a week with a couple of guys helping, so I think that will be the plan. Now whether it is this winter or next is the question... time to start scheduling!

You would be surprised at what you can get away with on the Bobcat - my 743DS moves just about anything I want to. The larger oaks don't get lifted, but that is what I keep chains and tongs for - the bobcat makes a fine skidder for short distances.

If you are in mud put a set of chains on the back tires - you will be impressed.

 

[TSRuff]

You would be surprised at what you can get away with on the Bobcat - my 743DS moves just about anything I want to. The larger oaks don't get lifted, but that is what I keep chains and tongs for - the bobcat makes a fine skidder for short distances.

If you are in mud put a set of chains on the back tires - you will be impressed.

The T250 actually has tracks on it... the land up there is very swampy and without the tracks it would just disappear in the summer. Pretty sure I can push the trunk sections around though, they should only weigh about 3500 pounds and I've moved a rock weighing at least that before.