Topping Trashes Ash

[treeseer]

Today's tree was an ash with a codom failure last night. The weight of the plump seeds tore it off. pic 1 is a view of the top, which had been hacked off 5-6 years ago. BS story at that time was lightning damage; I suspect construction injury that someone with a saw overreacted to. pic 2 is a view of the wound from the codom tearout. Most of the trunk was intact so I gave it a prognosis of safe survival for ~5years.

At that point I figure that the decay from the top will meet the decay from the codom wound, and the added growth of the crown will strain the defect enough to be a high risk. They will plant replacements this fall, and whack the ash in a few years.

Anybody recognize the black crud in pic 3? It's on the surface so far; hasn't killed the cambium; don't know if it is a pathogen. Funny that it only grows at the nodes.

pic 4 is a girdling root on another ash that I chiseled off. Some of the bark seemed grafted so I left it.

Comments welcome; don't be shy.

 

[begleytree]

Guy, I like reading your posts about tree problems when you get into it and explain your findings and what action or inaction you took, and why.
-Ralph

 

[matthias]

I agree with Begley. Threads like this are exactly what this site needs. They are educational (to me) and give this forum some actual arboriculture related content. A big pat on the back for Treeseer! Don't be afraid to throw the odd publicity shot of you in the tree working your magic. :Eye:

 

[MasterBlaster]

Guy is an enigma, wrapped around a riddle.

 

[begleytree]

Guy is an enigma, wrapped around a riddle.

Aint that the truth.


I received a PM from Guy stating thanks for the pat on the back, but he wants participation, so here's my story:

2 weeks ago, windy saturday, a woman calls about a large limb breaking out of her Ash tree in the BY, and it's laying on the fence. Being the good customer service guy, I drop what I'm doing, and run out in the pickup, with 046 in hand, to get it off the fence until monday.
Upon my arrival, I find a 12"DBH white ash, directly beneath the elec wires, and previously topped. One of the stubs that was left to act like a top, had broken off, about 8", hollow, and about 4 feet long, with the usual profusion of suckers.
Monday afternoon found me up in the tree, where I found that the repeated toppings (to no lateral) had hollowed or caused the tree to hollow about 4 feet down. (The 5 remaining limbs were healed over on the cut ends, but were hollow, or nearly so.) This was below the level of all the limbs, and with the house very close, was a situation I didn't feel comfortable leaving, although the stem from ground level looked fine, no decay. That wednesday found me removing said tree. The stem, upon removal, was solid but for the mentioned 4 feet down from the topping cuts. I believe that with more time, it would have hollowed more.
Tree contained no black crud
-Ralph

 

[JJackson]

I agree with those other guys about your posts, I find them very interesting. I dont konw why but I find co-dominant failures interesting.

 

[Trignog]

I also appreciate threads as this one.

As an aspiring arborist, its hard find work with people who have a genuine appreciation for their own trade. I do thats why I do it. Seems like lots of tree guys don't care or lost interest "it's just a pay check". I don't let it discurage me though thats why I am here with my fellow tree geeks. And I stay active in the private and public organizations around me were you find people who do care.

On the other hand AS is great for WAR STORIES! C'mon thats what brings us here a lot of the times!

 

[treeman82]

Man, I don't see too many live ash trees anymore. The ones I take notice of more often than not are dead.

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

Dead from what?

 

[PointerTree]

The 5 remaining limbs were healed over on the cut ends, but were hollow, or nearly so.
-Ralph

Just thought I would correct you on your wordage. You said that the limbs healed over, but trees dont heal, they seal. Trees are generating systems and seal over wounds, unlike humans who are regenerating and heal wounds.

Ryan

 

[begleytree]

If trees don't heal, then where so we get callous wood covering wounds?
IMO, and I'm not as learned as some here who should get into this, but trees seal wounds (harden off), then generate healing wood over the wounds.
But, there are more learned folks here that can clear it up.
-Ralph

 

[treeseer]

Just a wild guess here; does Ryan attend UWSP? College will turn folks into correcters; gotta watch out for that; what goes around...

One definition of "heal" is "to make whole again", and the tissue that is lost to decay is not regenerated in the same place and is lost forever, so that does not exactly apply to trees. Shigo made a large point over the heal/seal dichotomy, but it depends. Other definitions are "to restore to heath...to set right, amend", and I would say that generation of callus tissue and woundwood can do all that. Bear in mind that woundwood is 40% stronger than regular wood.

So Ralph, I'd avoid using the word "heal" regarding trees, mainly to avoid sorting out the objections, and correcting the correcters when need be. But we know that you know what you're talking about.

So Pointer, any other observations :Eye: ?

 

[PointerTree]

Great guess, I do attend UWSP, but graduating in a few days. I didnt mean to step on anyones feet, and figured I would catch flak from someone for that post.

It was said earlier in this thread that they liked these types of threads for educational reasons. I figured I would try to educate as well.

When I visted Shigo last fall he was pretty adamant about sealing vs. healing. I thought I would pass on that knowledge.

Ryan

 

[treeseer]

Great guess, I do attend UWSP,

*It was easy; your post's tone indicated the kind of certainty that only a college degree can give. But hey, if I spent that much on a sheepskin, I'd probably figure I knew it all too, and could walk on water to boot. (No offense bro; I think colleges are cool places to learn)

I figured I would try to educate as well.

*See what I mean? Actually Ralph's observations were spot on, imo.

When I visted Shigo last fall he was pretty adamant about sealing vs. healing. I thought I would pass on that knowledge.

*The good doctor is adamant on many things, and right on most things. But he would be the first to say, don't take his word for anything, touch trees and you will learn priceless knowledge from the true source.

So whatcha gonna do in the real world, Ryan? I hear another UWSP grad's company is hiring, in NW MKE. :blob5:

 

[PointerTree]

I heard a quote once. "Undergrad students think they know everything, graduate students realize they know nothing, and doctorates realize nobody knows anything."

I guess I just realized that I am at the undergrad stage right now!!

For the summer I am working on a Oak Wilt Suppresion Program in Minnesota, then in September I am taking an internship at a Botanical Garden in Thailand! After Thailand is up in the air yet, but I have the summer to try and figure that out. I am good friends with the UWSP alum in MKE.

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

I prefer "wound closure" or along that track. It's more acurate and implies a long term prosess. When taking about old trees and large cuts I'll often state that taht wound will probably never close.

I don't like "heal" because it leaves the general public to think it will leave everything ok for ever. That there will a chance for decay behind eve a closed wound.

I don't like "seal" becuase it just leads to the simantical arguments that Guy brings up. allso it is a little bit trite to me, an easy way of avoiding "heal" and an easy mnomic. Quite often the wounds do not "seal" either, and still leaves the homeowner unversed in TreePhys 101 into believing that wounding a tree is OK when any wounding effects the tree adversly.

Our goal is to wound the tree in a manner that it can adapt and over come that adversity.

mmmm..ok...I'll step down off the soapbox

 

[Nickrosis]

Hmmm. I suppose I would be the UWSP grad in NW MKE. :-D Yeah, I picked up one Pointer this year, but I would love to keep going. Hiring people from Point and MATC makes things MUCH easier when it comes to training! The brains have to be mated with a ready attitude, but the result is great.

College is where it's at, and I'm in it for at least one more year, maybe three... My HS classmate told me he'll be a doctor in two years, so I now I better go for a PhD. I'm half way through my master's and doing well and having fun!

 

[kf_tree]

Dead from what?

mike

i asked about this a while ago......but no one had the answer. somethings making it's way around the ash tree's in the north east. of the 7-8 on my property only one is doing well.....the rest are either dead or on their way out. the town has been taking down all the road side ones for the last year now.

 

[treeseer]

College is where it's at, and I'm in it for at least one more year, maybe three...

Maybe longer, thirty years later, if you're not careful and do like me...taking Introduction to Environmental Forensics this fall, learning how to trace the movement of chemicals through the biosphere. College is very , always new stuff to check out.

No, I don't mean them :blush:

kf, not enuf info to guess, sorry.

 

[hobby climber]

Eab

...dead from what you ask ? My guess is its the emerald Ash Borer,(EAB). It killed close to 90% of all ash trees in my area ! Read more about it at www.inspection.gc.ca HC