Tree problems at Camp

[MrSchaeferPants]

Feel free to move if in wrong section, not a home property, but it's where I work.

So I work at Camp Couchdale, a FFA camp here in AR. Basically a jack of all trades maintenance position, anything and everything that needs done from plumbing, electrical, mowing grass, waxing floors, cutting down trees, landscaping, carpentry...etc. Since I've been working here since September one of the things we do often, as in a few times a month, is pick up limbs, sticks, branches, big and small, a lot of them, as in nearly every tree seems to be dropping.

I've done my research, as I have 10 wooded acres of my own I'm constantly learning about. But IMO, due to lack of maintenance, or lack of a plan with this property, (the grounds, trees specifically) I'm assuming the trees are basically killing each other. There's too many, too close to each other. Some are inches apart, some are touching, some are a few feet, or within 10 foot of one another, and each additional surrounding tree. Oak, Hickory, Pine mix (Basic central AR mix).

Some are quite old, some are sapplings. Almost none have any kind of real crown up top, the only ones that do are the one's that are decently spaced from one another. I've probably cut down 10 good sized trees since being here, standing dead, leaning horribly, and there's tons more to do. Just a bunch of tall, gangly nearly limbless trees, and my assumption is because they're competing for soil nutrients, water, sunlight- just space really.

Other issues stem from this, there's hardly any grass anywhere from all droppings, sticks, leaves, acorns and such. Since there's no grass, and decades of erosion (hills everywhere, it all erodes into the lake). Most of what's on the ground is tree debris, uncovered rock, roots. No real topsoil anywhere due to the erosion.

My idea is in the spring when everything has leaves again, call in a forester. Now the potential issue, the head honcho bossman, really doesn't want anything alive and well cut down. I'm guessing he's envisioning that grand majestic old tree type look for the Camp, which I too would love to see. But perhaps he doesn't see that everything is pretty much dying, because they still have green leaves, and that this vision will never come to life, if things continue to stay as they are. He's very smart, down to earth person, with a huge education and lifetime career in agriculture.... but.

I personally, would get someone to come in, seriously thin everything out, timber sales and pulpwood. Take the old, the sick, and the dying, and give the existing young trees a chance to grow and actually develop limbs, and one day be big, straight tall strong trees. And take the profits from sales, remove roots, grade and level, truck load, after truck load of topsoil, and basically start all over. I think there's approx 100 acres, half is the campgrounds, the rest is just forested property.

So, after this massive post and thank you for bearing with me, is my assumptions correct? My plan a good one? I guess I just want to get my information, and ducks in a row before I bring this all up. Bringing in a forester, and developing a land plan is important. This place needs it real bad.

 

[Raintree]

Not wanting to stick pin in your balloon. We are talking about a "camp" not an estate on the lake. You may find the root of the erosion was caused by activity of campers not from an over mature forest. Remove the liability hazard trees, restrict human access to sensitive areas & let the forest heal on it's own.

 

[MrSchaeferPants]

I'm sure that's absolutely a factor, but there's a huge off season, so the majority of the campers is summertime with random small groups the rest of the year. But you're right, thousands of kids trampling around. However, it's the same in areas they don't go, like I said, only roughly half the property is actual camp grounds. The erosion is from many different reasons, it just depends on the area. Some areas is because of the buildings, no gutters, with sidewalks alongside, trapping the water, which goes to a drain, to a ditch, and to the lake. At one time the soil was even with these sidewalks, now it's 4" below the base, and with 4" of concrete, that's an 8" drop. Other issues of erosion are the hills, there's natural ditches all over the place from the run off from rains. But in these large areas of hills, there's no grass or vegetation to hold the soil. There's no grass because there's too much shade and debris, and many running feet I'm sure too. Plus the wrong grass for these areas, struggling to survive in conditions they're not meant for.

But in the areas where the trees aren't nearly as dense, as in trunk spacing, they have nice crowns, that touch, or nearly touch, and those trees don't drop limbs, and look healthier, and grass still grows. I know there are many many factors, such as wrong type of grass planted for sun, shade, mix, etc. There's probably every type of grass planted here, as previous guys just bought and tossed down whatever they happened to buy.

I know it's many things all contributing to how things are. But picking the brains of the couple who run the camp, and have done so since the 60s, I have a general concept of how things were then. They said there used to be grass in all these places, and of course I asked "How old/tall were many of these trees 50 years ago". Another reason to call in a forester is to do core samples. I can only count rings on the dead stuff I cut down


EDIT: Oh, and being a camp, to leave it on it's own to heal, would be to allow things such as natural forest fires that would help with overpopulated trees, correct? And a coated forest floor, not barren dirt and rock from failed grass.

And another fear, if the issues perhaps are a disease of some type, insects perhaps, would be compounded by trees weakened due to fighting for water, sun, etc.

I know, unfortunately I know just enough to get myself into trouble, kinda thing.

 

[CTYank]

Shade-mix grass. And for the trees that come down, chip what you can, leave that in piles to compost. When composting is done, you'll have pure humus to spread around to generate topsoil.
For professional guidance, there's probably a county agricultural extension agent handy, who'll advise gratis.
Lots of luck.

 

[MrSchaeferPants]

Shade-mix grass. And for the trees that come down, chip what you can, leave that in piles to compost. When composting is done, you'll have pure humus to spread around to generate topsoil.
For professional guidance, there's probably a county agricultural extension agent handy, who'll advise gratis.
Lots of luck.

A shade mix is what I plan on looking into for those areas, but also has to be drought tolerant, as our summers are super dry. Since I've started here, I've begun chipping branches and leaves, have quite a few compost piles going. But the equipment isn't big enough, lots of 'homeowner' sized equipment. Slowly trying to change that, but it's state funded, only so much in the budget, I'm happy we at least have a tractor lol. Our state forestry commission provides this service for free, which is who I plan on calling. I had a state forester over at my own place when I first moved here, they'll also help draw up a land plan.


I could call and have someone come out, and we could go over all of this. But what I'm trying to accomplish for the 'walk around' to include my bossman, who is incredibly busy, and travels the state, and out of state constantly. Finding the time is incredibly hard. So I guess my reasoning for this post is to get ideas and input, make sure I'm not crazy before I take this next step. Guess I could have someone come out twice, one walk around with just me, gather my info and what I learn, share it, then all of us get together.

 

[dboyd351]

Well, I've read this and your other post about your own 10 acres.
I think bringing in a forester is a very good idea. I haven't seen this property, but I doubt you really need compost or topsoil. Most forests generate their own soil and nutrients by decay of leaf litter, etc. I do think you could do well by selectively thinning the trees to promote what is called release growth, as the remaining trees have better access to sunlight, nutrients in the soil, etc. Testing the soil is a good idea, too. You can probably take samples to your local Ag extension to have tests run. That will help you determine if the soil is best suited to certain types of trees.
It's better for the environment, and far more likely to succeed, if you tailor your plans to what conditions are present, rather than trying to modify the whole landscape to meet your preconceived ideas for what it should be.
Another thing you can do is go visit local state parks in your area with similar terrain. These areas should give you a good idea what a healthy forest in similar terrain should look like. Chances are a "camp" has had land use practices that have altered the natural forest and you might want to see what a relatively unspoiled forest should look like. State parks also generally have knowledgable staff who are very enthusiastic about what they do and they can be a good resource in developing your management plan.
There are state agencies that have people who help you do things like this - In VA, for example, we have the Dept of Conservation and Recreation that promotes preserving wild areas for nature trails and similar public use. Then there is the VA Land Trust or The Nature Conservancy. They promote something called conservation easements, which your boss might actually want to have the camp become. Conservation Easements allow a group, such as a private family, or maybe even a camp like yours, to use the land, while promising it will never be used for something like a housing development. In return, the landowner is given tax credits or other monetary incentives. The people who run land trusts could give you good information on how to promote a healthy forest whether you are interested in their program or not.
There are grant programs on federal or state levels where natural resource agencies provide funding for restoring the functions of a tract of land relative to it's benefits for fish and wildlife. An example is in Northern CA, where the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service provides grants in the $20,000 - $100,000 range for restoring stream habitat for salmon and trout. I worked in that program for a couple of years. We took in grant proposals and awarded grants to private landowners who came up with the best plans for restoring the stream habitat on their lands. Non-profit organizations also helped promote the program and do some of the work. We even helped the applicants think out how to best do the work and helped them write the grant proposals.

Do your research and I'll bet your boss will be more likely to listen to your ideas. Enthusiasm will go a long way to getting this project done, but presenting your boss with some well thought research and plans will help get him on your side.

I wish you great success in your venture.

 

[MrSchaeferPants]

That's a lot of good info, and I've been trying to gather info on the things like grants and other monetary help, AR has all sorts of programs, as the majority of forestry land in the state are private land owners. I know what parts of our forests look like, as the Ouachita National Forest is one of my property lines at my home, but they do harvest timber from it, it was clear cut approx 27 years ago (the area by my home), when I had the forester out at my property, he did a core sample from across the road on one of the lobloly pines, another area in the nat'l forest I see they're doing selective thinning on the pine strands. So to see what what the local forests look like, they're not 'untouched' by man. At least the parts I've visited. To be honest, they look like my property (although older), and like the Camp. A lot of this area looks to be the same, all three locations are Oak/Hickory/Pine mixes. There's some areas (although far away) organizations are trying to restore the forests to what they should be. I'd like to go check those out.

A soil test is a good idea, these are all things I plan on going over while I have someone out at work, and all the information I'd like to gather to develop a plan. My statement about dumping loads of compost/top soil wasn't for the trees, but to have a chance at growing grass, they want grass... everywhere Which I'm not a fan of, especially in their denser wooded areas. IMO I'd leave grass only to the open fields, around a few of the cabins, and that's it. And that's a problem I have, is there are tons of area I think would be better suited with a forest floor (fallen sticks, leaves, etc.) If you know how impossible it is to grow grass under a pine tree, same principle. It CAN be done, I do it on my own front yard, but it's a yard, not a 100 acre camp. My reasoning, it's a summer camp, not a golf course.

What should be done in each area, should be dictated by the terrain and vegetation that area has. As it stands, we're working against what's natural, instead of with it. So we're accomplishing nothing, it looks bad, and it's eating up a lot of man hours. I say we, the other maint. guy who is my senior doesn't share my enthusiasm and vision of what should be done.

But to the trees specifically, what's a natural old growth forest, 30, 50, 150 trees per acre? Not 400. It's a FFA camp, making a positive difference in the lives of students by developing their potential for premier leadership, personal growth and career success through agricultural education. I believe proper forest stewardship theoretically falls in that category

 

[dboyd351]

I believe proper forest stewardship theoretically falls in that category

I absolutely agree with that statement. Sounds like you've got a pretty good grasp on what needs to be done and a lot of enthusiasm for doing it. Good luck on getting the support you need, too.

 

[Sagetown]

My place in OK borders AR, and it is similar to the OP's description. In this particular pic, it was so thick you could hardly check my fence line afoot. Appears to be lots of elm diseased trees. Hickory is mostly young saplings, what we call red oak, and pin oak, is not the correct names, but they look similar. I began thinning a few years back, and as shown, the grasses naturally takes hold where the competition has been removed.

 

[dboyd351]

Nice looking cart you've got to pull behind your ATV, Sage. Where did you get that?

 

[Sagetown]

Nice looking cart you've got to pull behind your ATV, Sage. Where did you get that?

After much searching on the net I came to the conclusion that I would more than likely have to improvise. So, I bought this flimsy little 4 wheel trailer from Northern Tool on sale. Then put a heavy axle, tongue, bulldog type trailer hitch, raised the bed above the axle 11", and ended up with a pretty good wagon. I really like the wagons ability to travel over rough rocky terrain , and out on flat ground it Cadillacs like driving on a super highway.

 

[dboyd351]

After much searching on the net I came to the conclusion that I would more than likely have to improvise. So, I bought this flimsy little 4 wheel trailer from Northern Tool on sale. Then put a heavy axle, tongue, bulldog type trailer hitch, raised the bed above the axle 11", and ended up with a pretty good wagon. I really like the wagons ability to travel over rough rocky terrain , and out on flat ground it Cadillacs like driving on a super highway.

 

[dboyd351]

Very, very nice!

 

[sgreanbeans]

That is cool, I would like to have that.........just cause its cool! Looks like a mini cattle pin.

 

[MrSchaeferPants]

My place in OK borders AR, and it is similar to the OP's description. In this particular pic, it was so thick you could hardly check my fence line afoot. Appears to be lots of elm diseased trees. Hickory is mostly young saplings, what we call red oak, and pin oak, is not the correct names, but they look similar. I began thinning a few years back, and as shown, the grasses naturally takes hold where the competition has been removed.

That pick looks very familiar. As for the Oaks, that's all I hear here, red and pin, and with the grass growing back on it's own, that's true too. I dig the cart! Man I wish my ATV was running, sick of carrying tools and equiptment

 

[Sagetown]

Hye MrShaeferPants: Back before the Hacks hit ArboristSite I had posted those pics a few times.

 

[PJM]

Really this all comes down to the management goals and objectives for the property. Essentially, management can be placed in two broad categories: Passive and Active. Your boss seems like he is in the Passive camp, while you would like to take a more Active approach. Passive management is pretty much "hands-off" and will allow nature to dictate the development of the forest. Still though, as a FFA camp, one your primary responsibilities must be to ensure the safety of your visitors. This then requires you to at least address potential hazards as Raintree suggests. Under a more Active approach the land manager will influence the development of the forest. Common activities would include forest thinning, weeding/culling and perhaps even the commercial harvesting of timber. In and of itself there is no right or wrong in deciding which management approach to take. It is often a matter of philosophy. But I would say that I sometimes encounter landowners who have decided on a passive approach without giving the the active approach more thoughtful consideration. After a more thorough examination of the possibilities that active management can provide, they sometimes change their philosophy.

 

[fuzz1500]

My place in OK borders AR, and it is similar to the OP's description. In this particular pic, it was so thick you could hardly check my fence line afoot. Appears to be lots of elm diseased trees. Hickory is mostly young saplings, what we call red oak, and pin oak, is not the correct names, but they look similar. I began thinning a few years back, and as shown, the grasses naturally takes hold where the competition has been removed.

Cool pics !!!


As for the O.P..... I do believe in thinning stuff out systematically ...to maybe see some of the benefits while you are still alive . A woods can do it on its own...but would take many many years of different transitions and die-offs . I say do it now !! I had a forester come out years back . He was a very nice guy who knew alot . But most of his suggestions were common sense to anyone who has spent a lot of time in the woods with the mindset of management . The most I got out of it was how to get grapevines go away and stay away !! Believe me......its still not that easy

 

[fuzz1500]

My place in OK borders AR, and it is similar to the OP's description. In this particular pic, it was so thick you could hardly check my fence line afoot. Appears to be lots of elm diseased trees. Hickory is mostly young saplings, what we call red oak, and pin oak, is not the correct names, but they look similar. I began thinning a few years back, and as shown, the grasses naturally takes hold where the competition has been removed.

Cool pics !!!


As for the O.P..... I do believe in thinning stuff out systematically ...to maybe see some of the benefits while you are still alive . A woods can do it on its own...but would take many many years of different transitions and die-offs . I say do it now !!