USFS being sued for not falling a dead tree....

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Been goin on for years. With so many politicians being lawyers what do we expect?
 
There's a case going on here, except nobody seems to know who is the owner of the tree as it is on a boundary line.

We used to get roads dehazard treed or "snagged" as part of the timber sale process. Fallers would fall the danger trees along a haul route and the trees would go to the mill as part of the sale, if they were sound enough.

That doesn't happen here. It still could, but purchasers don't ask to do it, and SAs are discouraged from making such decisions. The wildlife folks might not like it.

Since the tree fell on the mushroom pickers, killing one and injuring the other in their truck, one section--that one, of one road was done. The fatality was about 4 years ago.

I went to the training and was deemed a hazard tree identifier. At the training we were told it was the highest priority. Then we'd go back to our districts and be told there is no money, we can't do any.

And yes, if a hazard tree exists along a main road, where people stop for any length of time, it is supposed to come down.
 
Hel I would volunteer to do it in my limited spare time. Beats having the firewood thieves cutting down good wood.

Didn't Jameson do something like this while he was still in school?

A very good faller here looked into volunteering to do his daughter's school bus route for free. He was told that he would have to go through the USFS falling certification program. He could only be certified up to a "B" level--24" maximum diameter. The road goes through big punkins. He could not be certified as a C faller. We're talking about a good production faller who was able to find work during the slowdown because he is good.

He ended up falling trees for a pittance each. That way he could be hired as a contractor and the above would not apply. I got into a bit of trouble, because once you are walking, instead of driving, you can find a heck of a lot more trees. I packed some of his gear and OKed trees. He ended up coming close to making his usual wage. We had to stop because of budget. The rest of that road was done under a contract that folks bid on, and the wood was left to rot or be sold for firewood.
 
Hel I would volunteer to do it in my limited spare time. Beats having the firewood thieves cutting down good wood.

Didn't Jameson do something like this while he was still in school?

I sure did! For a state park in Oklahoma.

They provided saw gas (I bought my own mix oil) and bar oil, and when I needed it, they bought me a bar and two loops. Took out every hazard tree within striking distance of campgrounds, roads, powerlines, cabins, and offices.

If I thought it was a nesting tree I'd flag it with yellow for the naturalist to look at - once he/she made their decision, I either cut it or not. (Speaking of nesting trees, one pine had so much witches' broom on one side of it that birds of prey had turned it into a free nest. It was within striking distance of the main road, but it sweeped downhill and away - a dandy pine, too!)

Ended up falling over 1,100 hazard trees during my time there.

Also passed up on a good number of them, too. But if I could, I'd go back and fall them now; time is a teacher.
 
I usually don't side with the sue happy crowd, but if this snag really was in a campground next to a fire ring then I say the FS is probably negligent. I don't know all the particulars though. When I worked for the Park Service part of my job was dropping snags around wilderness campsites, so I would say a car-campground should have some maintenance done.
 
The last government job we cut, we had to drop all dead standing pine, marked or not. We were cutting a tract that had walking trails through out it, so no hazard trees were left. I'm pretty sure that all was wrote up in the bid.
 
I live in an area where there are many USFS leases for summer cabin sights. The "CIRCUS" does know the negative value of a danger tree. They inventory these lease lots every year and if any danger trees are found the home owner is notified to have the tree removed, at the lessees expense, failure to do so can result in fines and possible lease termination. Because these properties are under the USFS total control they have a safety obligation. I feel sorry for these folks, they have money invested in their cabin, of which they are total prisoners. It takes about 2 years to get a permit to fall a green tree so you can build a small deck. That's the end of my rant. Thanks
 
Blowdown was severe in northern Idaho last year, of all the people I knew that got injured or killed, they never sued anyone over it. My boss had his skidder and a log loader get hit by windfalls but we didnt ask ANYONE for compensation.
 
Northman, you do have this newly formed group in your area, I think.

Volunteering - Friends For Public Use

Thanks again, I'll have to look into contacting them folks. I think I know some to the Darrington folks, Don't know many people on the granite falls side... I'm a relatively new transplant to this side of the Mt loop, + I don't actually live in town
 
Blowdown was severe in northern Idaho last year, of all the people I knew that got injured or killed, they never sued anyone over it. My boss had his skidder and a log loader get hit by windfalls but we didnt ask ANYONE for compensation.

Logging and camping are two diffrent worlds. When I stepped over the bank it was on my own accord. If I took my family to a camp ground I wouldn't expect to be camping in a sang infested camp ground.
 
It hurts to see equipment hit in the woods. I would hazzard a guess your boss has insurance on his equipment.
 
The USFS is better off doing research and social media tweets and twitters and trying to educate the severely uneducated, urban mindset of the public. And that's not a bad thing. Somebody's gotta do it. But then again, there's a lot of the public that hates tax dollars funding research projects and papers, but they sure do love having answers to their questions. :laugh:

I'd like to see national forest management turned over to NGOs like TNC, they have a better vision for these types of things in today's world. Just don't turn our forests over to those godforsaken bull#### REITs. The only problem with that later on, is if TNC gets too big for their britches. Any organization, government or not, can lose their focus and become governmentally ill when they get too big and gain too much power.

If nobody wants to rx burn the forests (still don't get that - fire is responsible for half of the world's ecosystems we have today, including PNW forests), then there by god better be some logging going on. Although commercial logging is still on the decline, recently and for the foreseeable future (volatile markets), I'd also like to see more ecology-based stewardship logging - that's what provides commercial logging with a future. And good, smart silviculture, too.

As far as fire suppression, meh - they have all the money in the world; usually. This year is no different, per Tidwell, in spite of budget cuts.

So yeah, they've lost their original purpose, mostly, and they suppress too many fires as it is. Smokey is still misguided.
 
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What exactly does the current FS do anyway? They don't like us cutting firewood (keep changing the rules) they don't want us camping (charging a fee now) or hiking (same fee) Really frown on berry picking,

Do they all just stand around and watch the trees grow? And wait for em to catch on fire so they can make some overtime?

Roads are getting fixed by volunteers, sure they grade the heavy use roads but the side roads might as well not exist.

I'm just ranting, but it does seem like they are trying awful hard to turn the FS into a low rent park service.
 
What is an REIT? Acronyms should be defined--gentle hint.

The trouble is big. It has taken 30 years to get where it is now, and it ain't going to change unless the politicians take some unpopular actions.
I live in one of the small timber towns. I don't know how our last mill is going to stay afloat. It is in a great location for getting wood off Forest Service (FS) land, but not so good for trucking in wood off private and state lands. Most, heck, almost all their logs now come from state and private lands.

That's 30 years of indoctrination of kids into the enviro movement. Weyco used to leave pamphlets about forest management at the local environmental center/camp. It is a former Job Corps place and now is run by the state school principals. I guess the pamphlets were thrown out by the teachers, who labeled it propoganda. They couldn't keep a supply safe and gave up.

The teachers, movies, cartoons, etc. are against "chopping" down trees. The politicians need their votes to win, not the timber towns. The FS has fewer folks working for it and most are planners, not implementers. Planning is where the work is. Planning takes up most of the time. Meanwhile management now consists of those former planners. There has only been one forester appointed chief since the late 80s or early 90s.
She didn't go over too well with her 'ologist employees.

Yup, I'd change the name to the Forest Biology Service. That's what it is. Most of the public can't tell the difference between the FS and Park Service.

Nope, don't give it over to one of those acronyms. I still want to be free to wander about without having to get a permit. Of course, we do have to get a permit if we go into the wilderness. Our local wildernesses are free though. There is only one, the Alpine Lakes, that you must pay in order to get into a lottery, to get a permit, which you must then pay more for. I don't even try.

I like the idea of merging it with the BLM (Bureau of Land Management). Might as well. We'd save tax money by doing away with more management. They pay their employees a bit more too!

I survived quite a few "downsizing" events. What I saw was if you want your job saved, you'd best get on a downsizing planning committee.

Employees are very frustrated with some of the cost saving measures which actually cost more and use up their time. The computer is the big culprit. Every district used to have a computer expert who could work with you in a timely manner and get your machine going again. Now, you must phone a company in Colorado. They put some kid on the line, who suggests the well known procedures, like "Did you reboot your computer?" Maybe, after an hour, they might fix it over the phone. But usually, a ticket number is assigned and you must try to connect with an in house employee, who is a former district computer person, and set up an appointment for them to either talk you through it on the phone, or come out and fix it. The contractor gets paid either way. I guess that is another form of welfare. Plus, if you are are one of the few employees who goes out to the woods to work, it can be darn hard to get a time scheduled to get things fixed. So add in the hours of your time that had to be spent waiting and on the phone, and it can get pretty spendy.

It took 30 years to get to this stage. If folks cared, they should have started fighting the process a bit earlier.
 
Real estate investment trust, usually public trusts to buy timber lands and move them to public ownership off the tax roles. Environmental tax dodge.
 

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