USFS wood permit, 2nd violation, advice plz re court appearance. Thanks!

[tomtom-blue]

Hi mates, I have to go to federal court… This is a 2nd violation for firewood woodcutting on national forest land on an expired permit in east county mtns, San Diego. 1st offense: was $125, paid online in Aug. 2nd offense: this week the USFS officer wrote court "Appearance Mandatory" on the citation (actually was 2-citations).

These are monthly permits here. In San Diego county, USFS doesn't issue commercial permits. All I can do is explain to the judge…that I HONESTLY TRIED to renew the wood permit 2-TIMES before I was cited.
('Murphy's Law', if you care to read: 1st ranger station visit, they couldn't issue a new permit because of fiscal year-end computer audit. Then unbeknowst to me audit ends early and a colleague woodcutter is issued a permit. Heard his story, so I try make 2nd attempt for new permit. Colleague was lucky, I was told permits still not available, cuz certain issuing secretary is out of office. Then was mis-informed of issuing secretary's return to work day. Sigh, all could've been avoided. Shoulda-woulda-coulda, learned my lesson, for 5-6 small pine rounds, just don't even risk it, mates!)

Ok, questions…
-2nd offense permit violation, what penalty can I expect? Double earlier fine amount or more? Community service, ie. fwy pickup trash crew? Jail time???
-Can or should I visit prosecutor's office, try for pre-court counseling? Plea bargain?
-Do I need a lawyer?

Plzzz, anyone that can advise re USFS permit violations in federal court. Really need the help.

Thanks so much, Tom, San Diego county, Calif

 

[Zeus103363]

You in deep doggie doo!

 

[stihly dan]

No MAJOR CRIME DONE, PROBABLY go to jail forever. Should have killed someone, could of had community service.

 

[Patrick62]

No sense of humor

In dealing with USFS, my experience has shown to me that they (like most gvt agency's) has no sense of humor.
Guilty. You knew you didn't have permit.
They probably only fine the crap outta ya. Might affect the possibility of future sales.
Your screwed. You knew that.

-Pat

 

[Ayatollah]

All crimes or infractions have a penalty stated. Look that up in the federal register. What code did they list on the cite?

If you have availability, you could go to the federal courthouse in your area and look up cases involving the USFS, and from there you can search through them for similar cites and what the sentences or fines were. I used to be able to log onto the federal court system, but fell behind in a debt for search fees, and they cut me off. But you can do it at the courthouse for free

 

[tomtom-blue]

Ahhh, thanks Ayatollah. Whew, then I can at least go to the courthouse and ask for login to the federal register to look up the court's history on penalties. Then see what I am looking at. Re the actual offense codes listed...simply, I can't read what the lady officer wrote. Only option I have is to take my smartphone and use the "CamScanner" app to scan the citations and then ramp up the contrast to max in post-production and try to make out what she wrote on my laptop screen. Okay, once I have the actual codes, then go to courthouse and research...
Little more detail... On the day itself, I was given a warning only out in the woods (that officer did mostly fire patrols, trails repair, what the green USFS trucks do etc) and just I had to take the wood to a remote mtn fire station and drop it in a storage yard. Next day, I was called on phone and told by more senior enforcement officers to come into the main forest ranger station (report went up the chain of command). I went to conference, explained my chronology to obtain a new permit...but like Pat said in his post above, was like talking to a brick wall. Zero humor or understanding and meant nothing to them, what the office secretary did or didn't do. Only I remember the lady officer said that one citation was for "cutting" and the other citation was for "transporting" the wood on an expired permit.
Will advise when I can read the codes... -T

 

[stihl023/5]

No saws ever. Just kidding good luck

 

[brenndatomu]

I bet they'll whack yur winky with a prickly locust stick! Kiddin! Man that stinks, best of luck to ya, sure glad I can cut on private ground!

 

[slowp]

I've never dealt with court. I have dealt with the permits in the woods, and the endless questions.

I do know that there are times when you can't buy a wood permit. The example here is on Jan. 1. Nobody is working that day, and the tag color changes. If you are cutting firewood on FS land on Jan. 1, you are illegal. That's the way it is.

Audits are hell. I can't remember ever not selling because of an upcoming audit here. However, there are only a few people who are allowed to sell permits, and if they are gone, you're out of luck. And, the warning was changed to a ticket because you are a second time offender in a rather short time. You are lucky they didn't confiscate your saw.

It is all going to depend on how sympathetic the judge is.

 

[Wazzu]

Explain to them that you were given a warning in the field. You showed an act of good faith by coming to the office to get ticketed. They have no authority to require you to come to the office in order to be ticketed. Stuff like this pisses me off about the Forrest circus. Think about it this way, if a police officer stopped you and gave you a verbal warning for speeding do you think they would call you into the station later so they could issue a ticket. Hell no. Was the person who gave you the warning actually present when you were later ticketed at the office? You co-operated by taking the wood to their spot and you get a ticket after the fact. Perhaps you should also see if said wood is still there or if one of the employees already pilfered it for themselves.

PS as far as I know all the federal government can give you is prison or monetary penalty. So you will get another fine. Remember in the future you must not get wood on the kings land without permission.............

 

[Wazzu]

I've never dealt with court. I have dealt with the permits in the woods, and the endless questions.

I do know that there are times when you can't buy a wood permit. The example here is on Jan. 1. Nobody is working that day, and the tag color changes. If you are cutting firewood on FS land on Jan. 1, you are illegal. That's the way it is.

Audits are hell. I can't remember ever not selling because of an upcoming audit here. However, there are only a few people who are allowed to sell permits, and if they are gone, you're out of luck. And, the warning was changed to a ticket because you are a second time offender in a rather short time. You are lucky they didn't confiscate your saw.

It is all going to depend on how sympathetic the judge is.

Is this actually how the USFS operates???? Confiscate your saw? You have got to be kidding me. After the guy was already given a warning and cooperated with their requests. And yes I have had the same sort of problems in Boise at the end of the fiscal year. They would not give me a receipt for the permit I purchased because of some mumbo jumbo.

Assuming this guy is telling the truth, he tried to get the permit and was not able to. Now what.

 

[woodman6666]

I am not from your area so I dont know all the rules and what not, but If I were you I would definately go in person and sit down with the prosecuting attorney before your court date, they are usually willing to make deals to free up judges. I would explain that you tried to do the right thing, give dates and times, also be sure to let him or her know that any wood that you cut was taken by you to the proper place you were told and left there, showing good faith. Play very dumb, and ask him or her to be sympathetic. I personally would not sweat this much, what they really want is your money more than anything. You are not going to jail.

 

[Wolfen]

You sir are lucky I'm not the Judge, or you'd be screwed, cutting threes without planting them in return violates not mans law, but mother natures law.

Your sentence sir, would be to plant trees in the area where you removed them................sentence complete when you filled the last hole with a hardwood tree, sound a little too easy? Well ya gotta grow em too

Ya cut a tree, its not lie ya bombed a building or anything. I think a little common sense should be used when you go to court.

 

[bert the turtle]

The first thing you need to do is stop talking about it. Especially the part where you say you are guilty! Besides the fact that admitting you are guilty is not only not helping you, it may not even be true. You don't know all the relevant laws, case law, legal precedent, and/or policies.

Next thing is talk to a lawyer.

Pretty much no matter what you are accused of, the only things you need to do are shut up and talk to a lawyer.

 

[greenskeeper]

claim insanity, seems to work for mass shootings and the occasional wood-cutter....

 

[Sandhill Crane]

All they, the USFS, sees in your case is 2nd offense. Let me spell the last part, it is small and you may have missed it: period. Or translated numerically: $ Actually, I am spewing my past experience with hard lined law enforcement onto your case. The officer who gave you a warning was obviously not so ridged, that circumstances do matter, and the initial look of things is not always what they seem. Admitting responsibility, a mis-judgement on your part, and showing positive intent to get a permit after the first infraction shows, to me anyway, you are worthy of a clear conscious, regardless of what some judge decides. On the bright side... you didn't have to walk home.

 

[slowp]

Is this actually how the USFS operates???? Confiscate your saw? You have got to be kidding me. After the guy was already given a warning and cooperated with their requests. And yes I have had the same sort of problems in Boise at the end of the fiscal year. They would not give me a receipt for the permit I purchased because of some mumbo jumbo.

Assuming this guy is telling the truth, he tried to get the permit and was not able to. Now what.

Yes. They've even confiscated trucks loaded with wood. Truck and all can be locked up for a few days. They get returned, except in the case of the local guy who always has some kind of warrant out for his arrest. There was a low speed chase in the woods after him, almost comedy like. I guess he was zigzagging his trailer around so wood would spill out and cause problems for his pursuer. The trailer is probably still parked at the district.

Firewood thievery from the FS land is common here, and not just a pickup load here and there.

The trucks are given back, as are the saws, but some folks don't come back to get their saws. Like I said, the LEO has quite a collection in his storage. He also will confiscate guns if they are used for illegal activity.

The firewood is held until after the hearing, and then put up for public auction. The saws seem to be in limbo, locked up with nobody coming for them.

Now it is deer hunting season when the hunters get into the green log decks and ruin good logs.

I'll get flamed, but I hated dealing with firewood cutters. They are some of the orneriest, whiniest, pests out there.
I'd spend an afternoon, crawling up cutbanks to mark what they wanted, then they'd never cut it. For those guys, I would instantly run out of paint. Yup, I'll admit to that. Many only want clear, large diameter old growth for....firewood, instead of the second growth blowdown.

You'd have to spend a while in my former job to believe it.

 

[chucker]

everyone has to buy a permit or license for something or other!! so theres really no excuse for not getting one ahead of time before cutting!! its like needing gas and not puting any in after going by 3 stations and running out ! or them that need wood knowing theres a 3 day snow storm coming/here and need wood yesterday and ordering it after the storm!! i feel no remorse for them that think after the deed an want sorrow and pitty!! "NOTHINGS FREE" ........

 

[tomtom-blue]

To Wassu… Re "Was the person who gave you the warning actually present when you were later ticketed at the office?".
No, the forestry agent in the green truck was not at the ranger station conference. (Know him somewhat by name, he has advised me out in the field when e.g.. there are 1:00pm stops on all chainsaws, due to fire danger. Here in S. Calif, fire danger is a constant and always always, I respect this rule, plus carry shovel and fire extinguisher.)

To Woodman6666… Your advice is so valuable, whew, THANKS so much! Probably I need my court date paperwork (was told it arrives by mail). I will definitely try to see a prosecutor next week (if they let me) when I go research the penalty on the federal register at the federal courthouse.

To Wolfen… C'mon mate, all cutting in S. Calif region is to be done on downed trees & limbs only (the USFS agent who warned me and had me drop the wood has also advised me in past re certain downed limbs almost on the ground are okay to remove). Any cutting standing trees is big-time banned here in our region. We are advised here by the issuing permit secretary where the USFS crews (in green trucks) have been felling dead trees and we're given maps with specific work zones where to cut. We can't just cut anywhere. I respect these rules closely as well. Only USFS crews can fell trees in our region.

To Bert the turtle… Yes, getting tiny bit of advice from a friend's lawyer in state of MD.

To Slowp… I was warned at the ranger station conference that until the court appearance-->to have ZERO chainsaws, ie. nothin' in my truck, when driving on national forest land. Friend in MD told me same. Both saying, if seen with any cutting gear, am in big trouble. Probably get cuffed on the spot.
(OT, friend in MD tells an amazing story from his region. Logging company owner (has 30-employees) was major busted and it made their local MD tv news with video. Seems he cut the chain on a closed USFS road, went into a banned off-limits zone with tractor, camouflaged log hauling truck etc and started felling and logging. A spy drone with cameras flies overhead, looking for marijuana growing and spots his operation. USFS comes with guns drawn, company owner arrested/taken to jail. So it happens.)

 

[stihly dan]

The DA. Can be as dumb as a stump. Be careful when dealing with them. I had a Court date once, That had a 2 part law, you had to be guilty of both parts to be guilty. I was not, on either of them, and DA still wanted to prosecute. Judge spanked him on the peepee. But I still lost 2 days of work.

Oh ya on the 1st appearance, I pleaded not guilty. They told me of the none fine if I was guilty. So I changed my plea to guilty. 1 less day of work missed. Court would not allow me to change my plea because they felt that I felt I was Innocent.