walnut trees

[bethfm]

Hello all. I just found this site and look forward to learning from you experts. We just moved to a farm with lots of old-growth hardwoods, including walnuts, oaks, maples, and beeches. We also have cedars, large sweet gums and crepe myrtle and many old English boxwoods.

Our walnuts (we have more than 25) are the youngest of the trees and I heard from my old neighbor that they were planted about 50 years ago. They are all covered with a yellowish-green mold or fungus and I wondered if that was indicative of disease or just a symptom of the hot and humid summers we have in NC. Any one think they know?

I am also curious about the approximate age of the trees and how often I should have a professional come out to prune. Does anyone know what clues other than size I should seek to determine age? A couple of my beech trees, for example, stand at least 120' and are nearly 5-6' diameter. I haven't measured circumference but 3 adults weren't able to complete the circle with arms outstretched. Can anyone recommend good websites for this information? Is anyone aware, if any of these trees have historical significance, if free professional care is available through state or historical agencies?

Looking forward to learning from ya'll.

Beth at 5 Oaks Farm

 

[Fish]

Contact your nearest major University for the info, and probably
free help. I can say that determining age is difficult because if a
tree has been grown in a dense forest it can be quite old without
having the diameter one would expect. This wood, for harvest
purposes, is probably more desirable from a commercial point of
view, as it is stronger and moreover straighter with less major
lower branches, and would likely have more quality lumber as
a result. I realize I am stepping out of my area of expertize,
and am sure these guys would gladly correct me if I am wrong.
I wouldn't go into much more detail of your trees as these guys
may come down to help you "thin" it out. If you were willing to
thin and harvest what you have, it could be quite profitable, and
help the other trees on your property as well. The walnut
around here always has the fungus. Beech is a wood that I
have no idea if it is desirable or not. I have some land with a 4
foot diameter beech, so I would be curious about its value.
You will get a lot of advice here, much of it will be conflicting.
But you can glean some real nuggets of wisdom from here if you
look real hard.
Fish

 

[tony marks]

hi beth . im not sure this still applies,but a friend of mine who has become a multi milionaire,once told me to plant walnut trees on land not being used. he indicated they were projected to be a huge profit crop tree.thought id mention that ,ill let those who know more than me talk about your problem. later now.
ps no ididnt plant walnut trees. it figures

 

[svrfsvp]

Here in NC hardwoods can grow very rapidly - last year I sawed up a huge red oak that was knocked down in a micro-burst in Hillsborough - the local "experts" had estimated that it was at least 200 years old, if not more. I counted the rings, it was 118 years old, meaning it was a seedling back in the 1880's.

For opinions on pruning, you might want to check out the arborist or tree care forums.

Above all, if you decide to do something with the trees, get as many opinions as possible - there are as many approaches to dealing with trees as there are guys with chainsaws. I tend towards conservation and using trees that have been blown over in storms for my own wood working, but that's just my approach (and one, I might add, that provides plenty of wood in this land of hurricanes and tornadoes). It is ultimately up to the owner of the trees to decide what to do with them.

Hope you find some answers to your questions...

 

[bethfm]

Thanks Fish. Appalachian State is nearest univ. that may have expertise or NC State certainly. I'll do some checking and if I learn anything I'll post it. The largest beech on our property (the one I described) is at the base of a ridge that fronts about 15 acres, most of which looks to have never been cleared or farmed, or at least not in many generations. We have lots of woods that appear to be old, natural growth, and I have heard that is the most desirable commercial wood. My interest is in preserving as many beautiful trees as possible along and beyond this ridge, and if thinning helps, great, and if it gets me $, better yet.

Tony, interestingly enough, my 80 y.o. neighbor, who is widower of niece of last member of family to live in this 182 y.o. farmhouse and farm, tells me that the walnuts were planted because Uncle Ralph heard they were going to make him rich. So, maybe they'll make me rich! Yeah right. But there are too many and they dot land that we intend to use for sheep pasture...we'll keep many but not all. I'll let you know if they are worth $ and if you missed the boat on this one...at least maybe they'll help pay the mortgage.

Thanks for your help guys.

Beth

 

[bethfm]

Trees

Thanks svrpsvp. We have enough dead wood on the property to heat the house for a century and, like you, would rather keep the trees than cut them down to sell. I have a large sweet gum and large maple near enough to the house that they would cause some damage if they were to fall; the maple has been dropping small limbs in wind and rain and I wonder if this is a sign of problems or if it just needs pruning (although it looks to have been pruned recently). I wouldn't worry much but the limbs fall on our front walkway and it is bit disconcerting.

The forests I have seen around here have lots of pines but our wooded acreage has just a few pines (the largest one I've seen fell years ago and is nearly rotted, although it looks to have been huge). Most of the saplings are beech and the largest trees are beech. Were beech forests more common in NC ages ago? Is the lack of pines an indication that the acreage was never cleared?

As you can tell, I am terribly curious about the land I have recently purchased; this is the first time I've owned trees of any significance and I feel like I bought a classic car or something--I don't want to lose something special through neglect or ignorance.

 

[swampwhiteoak]

Most likely the Department of Natural Resources or similar agency has service foresters that will give you advice free of charge. I highly recommend you take them up on it. This should be your first step in managing your woods.

Large beech is usually difficult or impossible to age due to heartrot.

The first 17 feet is the most important part of the tree and is where the value lies. Most high value hardwoods are pretty good at self-pruning and it is rarely in your financial interest to prune them. Walnut plantations are the exception, but at fifty years old they are probably a little old to be pruning.

Assuming that the stand is mature, there is no reason you couldn't conduct a selective harvest to give you some income and help the remaining trees. Hire a forester to help you out.

This is all internet guesswork, get a forester to look at your situation.

Honestly, I'd probably thin the walnuts and keep the sheep out. Chances are the financial return would be much greater. But to each his/her own, good luck.

 

[Walt Galer]

Howdy,

Your local county extension agent is another source of information on tree care for your local area. (He is affiliated with the agricultural college for your state).

Regards,
Walt Galer

 

[Gypo Logger]

Hi Beth, you are very fortunate in that you own a woodlot and you should gaurd it jealously. Under no circumstances should you sign a contract with a logger, especially when it is his contract.
Beware of a logger that is eager into forcing you to take a down payment. So called independant foresters are often in cahoots with logging contractors and even if they arent, they have no power of enforcement. Many privately owned forests are ruined by greed or lack of knowledge. A one sided contract is sometimes designed to entrap the woodlot owner and is much like giving them the title to you home.
Now, having said that, I dont wish to appear as though I have a jaded view of all loggers or logging, I have just tried to outline how it can become a horror story and how your woodlot can look like a bad haircut if you dont know what you are doing. Subcontracting is where the woods gets pulped and pounded the most, as the operator must go like hell to get his meager pitance from the contractor although he may be offered a small premium for every tree he can steal or sneak over an adjacent boundary.
Your best approach is to get the advice from a Governmental U.S. Forester who are the best in the world.
There are several approaches that can be taken:
1: Cleaning. Which is a removal of dead, dying and downed trees.
2: Precommercial thinning: The removal of lesser grade trees that are competeing against more dominant crop trees.
3: Light Commercial Cut: Removing a predetermined # of financialy mature crop trees ( approx. 1-5/acre).
4: Cut & Run: allowing Joe Blow Lumberjack to rape and pilage your woodlot.
As good timber is much like green gold, it is the best to incorporate all the above in a thoughtful manner with the exclusion of #4, while making recreational and wildlife considerations as well.
Please ask if you need more questions answered, as I havent touched the tip of the iceberg about what I think is sound forest practice.
John

 

[Walt Galer]

Howdy Beth,

You would do well to listen to John. He seems to be amoung the few with chainsaws that has either morals or ethics. It has been said that if you were to give Jesus Christ a chainsaw, within half an hour he would become a theif!

Regards,
Walt

 

[Toneman]

Hi Beth,

John always has good advice. Check out his web site at

http://www.yukonjohn.ca
It will be worth your time.
Tony

 

[Toddppm]

Sounds like you're living on my dream property

From what I've heard, the beeches usually grow in the richest soils, that was how the farmers used to pick the best fields. the pines are usually the first to reestablish cleared land, then the hardwoods slowly move in.

If your woods are thick and natural I don't think I would try to thin out the trees except for maybe undesirable ones like non-natives. Wouldn't bother with a cleanup either as it helps the trees by breaking down and providing organic material and releasing nutrients back into the soil.
Nothing wrong with clearing out areas that you are going to use but letting sheep graze around the Walnuts will eventually compact the soil and slow their growth if not slowly kill them, but then you have a reason to harvest! Only my opinions, cut em all down is fine too , up to you.
Like john said the best place to get info on care and logging is The US forest Service they have programs setup to help landowners.
For the trees around your house call an I.S.A. Certified Arborist to look at them, if anyone recommends topping your trees run them off your property.

 

[bethfm]

Trees

Wow, you guys are great. I found arborist information on the NC State/AT&T State Cooperative Extension website and thought I'd pursue that to learn more (or at least try to identify a reputable arborist). I will visit the websites and take the other advice you all kindly provided; I do not intend to be "taken" or waste this treasure--we bought the place because of the beauty of the property.

Our walnuts weren't planted in rows like a tree farm but dotted on an otherwise relatively clear expanse of our land. We could probably keep sheep away from most of the walnut trees but does anybody know if sheep would cause damage to the trees?

Also, I noted on one of the websites I visited that trunk conks (mushrooms) are a sign of stem decay. We have a stand of 5 oaks at the front of our property (hence the name 5 Oaks Farm) that I dearly want to keep--I don't know how old they are but they're about 4'-5' diameter--but I noticed one of the trees has what appears to be a crack going up the trunk bark with a dark brown fungus, or mushrooms, growing from the crack. Does anyone know what to do about trunk conks/stem rot and, if one tree among a stand has them/it, is it a good bet they all do?

Thanks again and I'll keep you informed about how we proceed and how things turn out....

Beth

 

[bethfm]

Trees

Thanks Todd; I received the information about the sheep after I posted my last message.

 

[swampwhiteoak]

Gypo is giving good general advice. Some sawmill employees will represent themselves as "consultants". Any independent consulting forester should be a member of a professional consulting foresters society (Associated Consulting Foresters of America or similar state society). They should have no interest in any sawmill or logging operation. They will work either by the hour of as a percentage of the sale.

The USFS does not give landowner advice. They farm these programs out to state agencies. The state agency in your case is the Division of Forest Resources- http://www.dfr.state.nc.us/

Government foresters are limited by the amount of services they can provide. That is why it is sometimes a good idea to employ a private consultant. Determining your tax basis, environmental law compliance, and baby sitting the logging operation are the types of things they can do. They almost always more than pay for themselves.

Thinning a stand can be beneficial to the forest and to your pocket. It depends on site specific conditions. Like I said before, I highly recommend you take advantage of the free advice they can provide you.

Sheep will ruin a forest, guaranteed.

 

[bethfm]

Trees

Thanks for the advice. You've convinced me that I need to keep sheep away from the walnut trees.

Beth

 

[Fish]

What about Llamas?

 

[Gypo Logger]

Hi There, letting loose domestic cloven hooved animals in a forest is usually bad news, but is advantagious prior to a thining because they trample the undergrowth, making it easier to work in. Indiscriminate pasturing of an imature stand will only result in soil compaction and every tree becomes a back scratcher retarding their growth. If done correctly, pasturing is beneficial to uneven aged stands of hardwood.
I have witnessed sheep used effectively in young Doug Fir stands after clearcuts and scarifying. Sheep will not browse the Fir but graze on most of the other plant life trying to tower over the Fir. A moveable fence was simply moved around the stand to contain the sheep. This method is very cost effective if Wolves and Cougars are kept at bay.
Most stands of Walnut were planted as a long term projection and never managed properly, so they usually grew with poor form after the planter lost interest due to girdling by rabbits and brousing by deer. Walnut is best cultivated in an already established stand where it has the required side competition.
I was told that Moose in Maine had liver cancer due to browsing on young softwood stands from the insecticide that was sprayed on them. Animals and timber can go hand in hand if kept in check.
I was told that there were no mooose in B.C. until clearcuts created the low brush browse that these animals are dependant upon.
John

 

[CMBetz]

Excellent advice, Swamp. You are dead on about the USDA FS, too. Additionally, the Natural Resource Professionals (i.e. Extension Foresters) of the Conservation Soil Districts are rapidly disappearing, as that program has been cut.

My advice to you, Beth, is to contact your CSD and find out if they still have an NRP specializing in forestry on staff. If they do, you can expect to pay somewhere between $0 and $250 for them to do a forest management plan for you, as well as give some basic silvicultural advice. Otherwise, you should contact a certified forester in your area. I am not sure if your state requires a license to practice consulting forestry, but you may be able to find out by searching your state government website.

 

[bethfm]

Trees

Thanks guys. I contacted the NC Cooperative Extension Service and they recommended Lusk Tree Service. Lusk is a certified arborist and member of the national association, and he doesn't advertise topping like some of the tree services advertised in my area (it seems like the thing to do in this area--the tops of all these beautiful old trees are hacked off and I've wondered, why do people do that?! ). Anyway, he quoted $75/hour, which should be enough time he thought to come out and assess and tell me what he thinks I need (or don't need). I don't know if he can help me design a plan for my land and forest, but I'll also pursue the other leads you guys provided.

John, you are right about my walnut trees--they seem to have been planted in a frenzy and then left, through lack of interest or physical incapacity of the planter, to go their own way. But even so, they seem fairly healthy but I'm not certain they are growing in the ideal way. What size are walnut trees when considered "ideal" to harvest and how many side branches are too many? They are too mature, I think, to prune, so I'm not certain if they're still a good investment, other than being pretty and providing shade. I doubt if my walnut trees are good candidates to benefit from the sheep for the reasons you mentioned so we'll keep them away.

We measured a couple of our beeches--1 is 13' circumference and another is 11', but we have many mature beech and oak trees, very large, that have grown tall and straight with very few side branches. We have one stand that has 4 huge oaks growing out from near each other like flowers in a vase--each must be 10' circumference. If we decided to harvest a few of the trees, how should we go about picking the right trees, or should I trust a logger, or Lusk, to tell me?

By the way, it looks like ya'll LOVE your chain saws, and I mean LOVE your chain saws, which may be illegal in some parts of the country. But although this isn't the chain saw thread, I'd like your opinion. I bought my husband a chain saw for Christmas. Someone recommended Stihl and so I bought him a Stihl MS 290 Farm Boss with a 20" bar. Now this was a much better, bigger, and more expensive saw than they tried to sell me at the local home improvement warehouse (cuz a friend told me the saws that local home place carried were crap), so I thought I was giving him a decent saw. But now I wonder--should he feel like a man with the Farm Boss or did I do him wrong? He isn't sleeping with it, or posting pics of it on the web, so it must not be THAT great.

I'll let ya'll know what Lusk says...John, you ever get down this way and want to do some logging?

Beth