What should I charge for milling? (sure this has been asked before)

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Yellowbeard

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I've done some milling for friends in the past in exchange for some of the wood, but, frankly, this has been a hobby for me rather than a business. However, I milled some wood for a friend who is an architect recently and he told someone else about it who now wants me to mill up a 30-36" white oak for him.

I am sort of at a loss as to what to charge for this. I would probably, at this point, be willing to take wood, cash, or a combination of both. Can anyone give me a good rule of thumb? Keep in mind that I am more on the hobbyist side than the professional side at this point.

Thanks!
 
Since this is early in the game for you, charging $.35 per bd ft wouldn't be too far off, or mill on 50/50 shares, IF you can use or sell the wood. A 10' log 30" diameter (small end, inside the bark) will yield around 460 board feet on a band saw mill. That's International 1/4" scale, plus 14%, which is pretty consistent for estimating. If you are involved in transporting either the log or the mill, you should charge for that, as well.
 
Wouldn't an hourly charge be the best way?? Like Hamish said, $0.35 won't begin to cover costs, let alone your labor.

I assume since you're using a CSM, you're doing "special" sawing?? A job that can't be handled in a conventional manner?? ex: remote location, limited access, transport, etc.
 
Wouldn't an hourly charge be the best way?? Like Hamish said, $0.35 won't begin to cover costs, let alone your labor.

I assume since you're using a CSM, you're doing "special" sawing?? A job that can't be handled in a conventional manner?? ex: remote location, limited access, transport, etc.

It's the big white oak in this post: http://www.arboristsite.com/community/threads/white-oak.259852/

42" and lot's of weird crotches on one end. Not sure of location. Assume that would be difficult for most BSMs to handle (don't they often top out at 36"? I guess that's a dumb thing to say - sure they come in all sizes).

I will have to buy a 50" bar and chains to do this job - something I have been wanting but they still cost money. Thinking that if I can end up with the bar and chain clear plus my costs then it wouldn't be a bad deal. I have been told by the guy who recommended me to the owner of the log that I should make sure and make a profit and that the client will understand that.

Speaking of, Cannon or GB? Anyone have an opinion on that? Cannon is cheaper right now by about 20 bucks.

Any help is appreciated.
 
I have recently done quite a few huge white oaks (5-6' across).
I can tell you you need to recover these items right off the bat:
Fuel/mix
Bar oil
Grinding and filing
Come up with a lump sum number on these items right away and then tel them this is an upfront charge.
Then cover incidentals such as broken chain or cutters, tell the client that if you should hit something that causes that they will be buying you a new chain of it is shot and cannot be re-ground.
You time is not free, get paid for it somehow.
I would figure out a way to either charge per board that comes off the log and a seperate number for a big beam or cant as those can take alot of setup work!
Board foot can work if you have both a CS mill and Bandsaw setup but to me if just using a CS mill...$.35/bdft is not even close to enough to cover that amount of work and risk to equipment with huge oaks.
 
Chain saw mill... that changes everything. I'd charge $1.50/mile to come to his location, then $60/hr (or whatever will cover your time and expense). After each cut, stop (you'll be ready for a break), and tell him how much that cut cost. As long as he says keep going, then keep on milling. If he says to stop, charge for the hauling and time spent and pack up. The chain saw mill will not be cost competitive compared to a band mill, and your customer needs to understand that. To cut at band saw rates will lose you money, for sure.
 
I went and looked at the log in person yesterday and had a long talk with the client. He only wants a few cuts because he wants to end up with giant slabs. It turned out that the log was actually bigger than 50" on one end and it has some branches sticking out at several odd angles which I will try to preserve as crotches where I can. Since I will end up needing a 60" bar and chains to do the job, I told him that it would be fine with me if I just came out ahead on equipment. So I think he's going to end up buying my new bar and chains and maybe some stock to make new rails for the Alaskan and I'm going to do the labor for "free." But it looks like he may have other interesting projects in the future so it could be the beginning of a beautiful relationship.

I ordered a 60" GB titanium yesterday from Left Coast. Can't wait to get it. Will be running it on my 084 with regular stihl .404 chain (no skips, factory angle) to start. I'll bring that angle down to 10 degrees or so over time as I sharpen per BobL's sharpening regimen. Any thoughts on this setup are also appreciated. However, I can get those chains at $1/bar inch so they're cheaper than ordering full skip from Left Coast (and they don't even have it in stock) and I figure the 084 will have plenty of grunt to pull a no-skip chain with no problems. However, as I said, advice is appreciated.

Here are some more pictures of the log, which some have said should be turned into firewood. I disagree. It got hit by lightning and that's the only reason it's dead. Looks TOTALLY solid all the way through. Plus the client has a tractor so that makes for less or at least somewhat easier work.

Here are some images with some measurements. I plan to make a first cut plumb down the center to open it up and look at the heart. Then 4"-5" slabs off the first cut. After that, he wants to use the rounds for things too so I am figuring /maybe/ one more slab cut either side and then done. Any and all advice is, of course, appreciated.

White Oak 1 - edit.jpgWhite Oak 4 edit.jpg
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White Oak  cuts.jpg

Obviously I'll be trimming off a bunch of stuff before I begin. Client painted it on my advice very shortly after it was cut. Right now basically thinking about cutting where I indicated with blue lines on the last picture.
 

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When I use a 394 with a 44" GB extra long bar and fresh teeth....about 15mins per pass and I refill gas and oil about half way to make sure I don't run lean! My 394 is a thirsty girl!!
 
When I use a 394 with a 44" GB extra long bar and fresh teeth....about 15mins per pass and I refill gas and oil about half way to make sure I don't run lean! My 394 is a thirsty girl!!
That's good to know. Thanks for the info. It will help me plan.

W.C.
 
***Update***

Weather finally cooled off this week (we went from AC one night to heat the next - typical Arkansas weather for you) and I went and did some initial setup. Wanted to post some pictures and ask some advice. First off, here's a link to a video of a walk-around of the log:

Here are some other images:
IMG_3514.JPG IMG_3512.JPG IMG_3521.JPG IMG_3517.JPG

That's my 084 with a 36" bar on it up there for scale. I trimmed the log a bit from how it started (see images up-thread) and removed a sort of outrigger that was on it and rolled it over a bit. I have a tractor available so I will keep rolling and adjusting it tomorrow until the black line is level with the ground. The log is also on a slope, so I plan to move it until it is pointing down-slope, then use the tractor to raise the high end a bit and stick it up on top of another log so I can get some slope.

I'm aiming to get the most width I can out of it - that black line is something like 50 inches or so. Each of the red lines above represents a 4" slab. I am trying to get two slabs right off the heart at the widest point both for the widest possible slabs and for the most "quater-sawn" face showing.

Anyone have any advice? I think I have this handled, but this will be the largest log I've ever tackled. I'm also doing it for a client who is buying me the bar, chains, and some stock aluminum needed to make my Alaskan wide enough to cut it (so around $400-$500 in trade). Of course, as I switch from amateur, doing stuff for me to professional, could screw up someone's really nice piece of wood I am a bit nervous, so any advice is welcome.

I'll post some images and footage of my milling a big chunk of walnut soon also so you can see what all I'm doing incorrectly.

Thanks in advance!
 
Make sure you have plenty of wedges to put in so it doesn't pinch or the trailing side of the chain isn't cutting it again. I would probably go to skip on that length bar. That's a whole ton of cutters in the wood at once at 50" wide.
 
Hmm... Already have non-skip chain at this point. The saw seemed able to pull it through some pretty big walnut I was doing. Of course, I can get some full-skip chain before I make the cuts if it's extra-advisable. I don't mind going a bit more slowly if necessary if that's the penalty for using all the teeth. Of course, it helps that I have a very well-taken care of and powerful saw that I got a great deal on somewhere... ;)
 
I went and moved the log around (man I need a tractor - moving a log that way is MUCH easier on the back) and trimmed it up, then got the rails on. Advice welcome on this setup. Luckily I was able to use the natural slope of the hill it was on for decline - couldn't lift even an end of it with the tractor so there was no raising it. Also, it's tall enough that the first few cuts won't be on my knees. Maybe once I get to the halfway point I'll be able to lift an end with the tractor and get something under it.

I'm using 2X4s for rails (as is probably obvious). They are stabilized in three places in the middle. What I spent the most time on and would love thoughts on are the slab divisions I set up. As you can see in a couple of the images, I have my level across my rails and my tape hanging down to the middle of the log. That measurement (from the same place on the same level, sitting on the rails) is 20.75" on both ends of the log. I am almost certain the top end (the rounder end) is set so that the black line is going right across the heart. On the opposite end (the oblong end) it is harder to tell exactly where the heart is, but that's about the middle of the log as far as I can tell. My goal is to get two slabs right off the heart so that if someone wanted to make a ridiculous table then they could book match it. Failing that (which would be silly anyway) you could get two REALLY nice single slab tables out of that set of slabs. Then there should be 2-3 more cuts of that size coming off each side which will also be pretty darn nice. I expect that each slab could easily make a table by itself.

My calculation is that if the rails are 20.75" from those black lines which represent the center on both ends, then when I eventually start a cut there, I should come out in the same place on the other end. Those two planes (the plane of the top of the rails and the one through the log) should be parallel, right? I can't see any way that that is incorrect.

I'll be cutting with an 084 with a 60" GB milling bar running full tooth .404 with the teeth still at the normal cross-cut angle. The chains are new and, taking a page out of bobl's book I am not going to grind them over to 10 degrees until I can do so in the normal course of sharpening. I was able to cut the walnut in the other thread I posted recently with that setup without much difficulty.

Anyway, would love critique on the setup. I won't be able to start making cuts for a couple of weeks at least (probably at least 3, actually) so there is plenty of time to tell me what I am doing incorrectly. Just don't want to mess up this piece of wood. All help is appreciated and don't feel you have to softball it - I can take it.




IMG_3525.JPG IMG_3527.JPG IMG_3524.JPG IMG_3526.JPG IMG_3529.JPG IMG_3530.JPG IMG_3532.JPG IMG_3535.JPG IMG_3533.JPG IMG_3531.JPG
 
Oh, one other thing: Have pretty much agreed to do this job in exchange for enough money to pay for the equipment I had to buy in order to do the job - so about $400, though I may ask for one of the slabs on top of that as well. It's probably a crappy hourly rate but it is my first foray as a professional. Any thoughts on that?

Thanks!
 
That saw is strong. I was thinking of the sharpening part really. I was only getting 2 cuts before touch up on 7'-29" wide oak.
 
There is no question that I would love to sharpen half as many teeth. I was touching it up between every pass on the walnut - maybe I can sharpen it a little less frequently? Although given the amount of wood I am doing compared with 29" it may take a sharpening every pass. This saw is DEFINITELY a hoss. So I know you had an aftermarket breather on it before you sold it to me. Is that something I should consider? What's it do, add a bit of horsepower I imagine?
 
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