Who is responsible?

[Derik L]

In our area we have a crane company that strictly subcontracts out to the local tree companys. He has a group of about 5 companies he works for on a regular basis. He went to a job with the guy he was working for to take some trees down. They looked over the job and how they were going to set up and decided to put the crane on the grass next to the drive way. The crane operator asked where the septic system was and the owner of the tree company said it was on the other side of the yard. They began the job and when they were lifting the last butt off the stump the rear outrigger went through the top of the septic tank. The crane went over on its side. Two other cranes had to come to get it up, the last 2 sections of boom had to be cut off and the others were bent. My question is, Who is responsible in a situation like this, the tree company or the crane company. I personally think the tree company should be responsiable for locating anything underground.

Thanks for any input

 

[Treeman14]

That depends on your interpretation of responsibility. The way I see it, the tree service is ETHICALLY responsible since they gave misleading information. The crane service(and his insurer) is FINANCIALLY responsible since his equipment caused the damage. And whoever has the least competent lawyer is LEGALLY responsible.

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

It would realy depend on how he worte his contract.

Crane companies here have contracts that say they are not liable for any damamge off the road. The contracting company takes any responsability if they have the rig leave the road.

 

[Derik L]

There is minimal damage to the property but extensive damage to the crane. When the boom hit the ground it bent the 2 end sections. The outrigger that went through the tank is bent also. It seems to me the tree company's insurance should be responsible for the crane repairs.

 

[sonny]

ditto to tree 14 & jps reply. As far as min. damage to prop. owners damage. That depends on the homeowner. Im sure the grass the septic tank , etc. etc. had sendimental value. Thats why most politicians are lawyers. There all crooks.Just as insurance companies.

 

[NeTree]

Well if it had happened in Massachusetts, here's the spread:

The damage to the septic and lawn would be the financial responsibility of the tree guy's liablity carrier. (IF he was smart enough to have it- otherwise, the tree guy himself). This is because they are the contractor of record, whether it was written, or only verbal. This is because the vehicle (crane) insurance will not cover it due to being set up for a lift. The truck insurance on the crane is for over-the-road issues. The liablity carrier of the crane op, if he has it, would argue that the crane was directed to park/set-up at a particular location by the direction of the contractor of record, our tree guy.

As for the damage to the crane, that would either be split jointly betyween the crane and tree guys liability policies (again, assuming they have them) or on the tree guy's, again, because he made the direction to set up the crane where it was. (Although the crane op had an obligation, if the homeowner were available, to verify the placement of the septic).

A former employer of mine went thru just this situation in June of 2000. His liablity had to eat everything but the first 5 g's of the crane damage. (deductibles not-withstanding).

Erik
[email protected]

 

[TheTreeSpyder]

Down here in Florida it seems popular for the Tree Liability policies to exclude underground damage. Crane companies usually have pretty well woprded contracts sugeested by laywers and insurerers. The damage to the crane is probably spelled out pretty well in that contract. Nicley put on analysis Brett.

i can't help but wonder if it was the homeowner that told the tree company that the septic was on the side, cause one time..........

Seeing as no digging/grinding was taking place, i might have taken the homeowners word for where the tank was, especially if it borne mute witnesses of ground changes in elevation, health etc.

What if crane fell in a sink hole? What happens if the owner says they have no septic, only sewer and you fall into a septic tank from the previous owner with your truck? What if this owner just forgot about it?

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

What if you got a signed statement from the client as to the location of underground utilites?

The your lawyer will probly have to argue the validity of the contract in court.

 

[NeTree]

I guess owning my own crane has at least one advantage- If something ever happens, I won't have the headache of sorthing THAT liability issue out.

Ok, now here's a good question: Does anyone know of a relatively inexpensive machine to detect underground voids, utilities and such? Something I guess kinda like a cross between a metal detector and a depth finder.

 

[geofore]

liability

When there is a question of septic tank or other viod being somewhere on the property why did the crane operator not put down 4'x4' plywood on top of oak planks for the outriggers to sit on to spread the load? When there is a question of unseen voids it is wise to use RR ties or some other wood to spread the load of the outriggers. Even in the driveway you still run the risk of pushing through the asphalt on a warm day without spreaders for the outriggersto sit on.
Let me suggest the use of spreaders when the rig is near foundation walls also, you will be less likely to collapse the wall. Still the question is did the homeowner say the septic tank was on the other side of the property?

 

[Derik L]

The homeowner told the tree guy the septic was on the other side. There is always a 2'x2'x 4" thick pad under the outrigger and usually a 4'x4'x1.5" pad under them. On soft ground a sheet of plywood is also used. If any of the trucks are going to go near the edge of a driveway or off the road we have 20 sheets of 3/4 plywood so we dont make ruts. If there is any question about a problem we set up in a different area.

 

[NeTree]

I agree. Large pads, and lots of them, should be used ALL the time, no matter what the surface. Ya just never know what might happen, and it's better to play it safe.

 

[geofore]

homeowner's directions

Sounds like the right precautions taken but homeowner's directions all wrong.

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

The only thing I know of that would show underground structures would be Ground Penetrating Radar (GPR) which is not cheap.

There was some talk of some reasonably priced models, but they are working on a problem with the clay being RADAR absorbative

 

[NeTree]

Thanks JP, that was exactly what I was thinking of, but couldn't remember the name...

O well, maybe someday we'll all have toys like that!

 

[treeist]

I do feel sorry for the crane operater. The big crane people around here do not ever particularly like working with trees because they are so dangerous. I hope I never take someones elses word for it with out getting it in writing again. The last time I did that I got my 4 wheel drive bucket truck stuck after the owner told me it was solid he forgot to mention he just put in a new drainage pipe and I must have just stepped over the quick sand when I walked it out. Of course he lied about what he said and I paid::

John Kakouris
certified arborist
WC ISA #379

 

[NeTree]

and people wonder why tree companies charge what we do...