why does no one use a hydraulic accumulator to speed up the hydro log splitter ?

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bigric954rr

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why does no one use a hydraulic accumulator to speed up the hydro log splitter ?

you could use the sped and power of it when splitting and let it recharge while you get more wood or move the half's around to split them again ?
 
I have heard of accumulators in water systems.
I'm not sure what I'm talking about really... but in a water system, say a house, the bladder tank would be the accumulator. We have a geothermal system with two really large bladder tanks and a small (low horse power) submersible pump. The idea being small pump runs longer until pressure is up. The increased reserve reduces the number of start ups for the pump.

With hydraulics the pump puts out a constant flow (no on/off flow from pump, no bleed down of pressure like a bladder tank) whether used for work, or returned through the valve to the tank, the oil is continuously flowing.

I'm not sure how it would work... unless there are multiple hydraulic functions that are reducing pressure at times to the cylinder.
 
it could add any speed you could want from instant to just a little faster with a flow restrictor.

it wouldn't increase the impact force any really unless you left it wide open flow which would be just scary.

no videos i just got my 35 ton speeco splitter is seems to be fast enough for now. maybe later after i install a pressure gauge i might install one just for fun and a little speed. if you pump and splitter maxs out at 3000 psi you will still only had 3000 psi but would have more on demand flow so you could in theory add 2-5 gpm of pump while keep same hp engine with maybe a 50 percent duty cycle with no lost of stock power of speed
 
I imagine cost and maintenance are the prohibiting factors.The accumulators I'm most familiar with are air over oil. The air over type require compressed gas to service which most homeowners are not going to keep a bottle of nitrogen around for. The only spring types I have ever encountered were used to keep a small head pressure on a pump like 30-40 psi for start up, there maybe ones out there that could be used but I would think for a homeowner grade splitter it would have to be a spring type that didn't require any servicing.
 
I have heard of accumulators in water systems.
I'm not sure what I'm talking about really... but in a water system, say a house, the bladder tank would be the accumulator. We have a geothermal system with two really large bladder tanks and a small (low horse power) submersible pump. The idea being small pump runs longer until pressure is up. The increased reserve reduces the number of start ups for the pump.

With hydraulics the pump puts out a constant flow (no on/off flow from pump, no bleed down of pressure like a bladder tank) whether used for work, or returned through the valve to the tank, the oil is continuously flowing.

I'm not sure how it would work... unless there are multiple hydraulic functions that are reducing pressure at times to the cylinder.

On a variable pump setup (like an excavator) an accumulator is used for "surge".. like a house water tank, until the engine can Rev and pumps flow more. Also helps to level out pressure spikes too.

On a fixed displacement pump, not sure it'd help?


On a splitter... faster means larger pump and large rod on the ram. My processor has about a 4 second cycle. 30gpm pump. 3" rod on a 4.5" cylinder.

Boils down to cost and safety on the mass merchant splitters I think.

Just my thoughts, I'd not an expert on hydraulics by any means.
 
i was just kinda wondering i used to work with 3- 5gal ones which you could hand pump to 3500 psi then use it to start a 7000 hp engine for about 10 second blast/cranking though a 3/4 line til it drop down to 1700 psi
 
it could add any speed you could want from instant to just a little faster with a flow restrictor.

it wouldn't increase the impact force any really unless you left it wide open flow which would be just scary.
Let me make sure I understand what you are suggesting. You want to add a accumulator to speed up the splitter, then add a flow control to slow it down?
 
I don't believe a hydraulic accumulator has much of an application for a log splitter. For much of the duty cycle the motor and hydraulic system is operating at very low pressure. Hard to predict and variable ram speed would be highly dangerous. Of course it could be done and be very effective if enough money were thrown at it.

Another idea would be a flywheel to accumulate rotational momentum and have a two speed hydraulic pump mounted to the flywheel axle. This of course complicates the splitter but the possibility of using a much smaller engine exist. Hitting the hydraulic control a few times on really tough pieces may be effective. The belt puller ratios would need to be closer to 1 to one than shown in the drawing unless a really large hyd pump were driven slowly.


Flywheel hydraulic splitter.jpg
 
I think there are just to many better ways to speed up a splitter without using a accumulator. These ways are much less complicated as well. The only possible reason I can see to use a accumulator on a splitter is to decrease cycle times. this can be done much more efficiently buy matching the correct parts when doing the build. Someone has already mentioned using a larger rod in the cylinder, that would be a lot better and cheaper than adding an accumulator. Another method would be to use a regen control valve, this would give a similar effect as using a accumulator. You would get very fast extension and then the valve is activated for full pressure for the split. If you want hands free operation, then using a auto cycle valve will get you almost there. There is also the option to use solenoid control valves for a true full automatic operation. Load a round, hit a button and walk away, cyl can extend and retract at full system pressure, unlike a autocycle valve that will retract at a set pressure if high pressure is met during the splitting cycle. You also have the simplest option of just using a bigger engine and pump. If your building your own, bigger isnt that much more expensive, if your modifying a functioning splitter, then the extra cost might not be worth the added expense. We had 8ft long, 4in bore cyl that could cycle 13 times a minute on tie extractor machines, Thats 16ft of extension and retraction every 4.5 sec and cycle was actually a lot faster than that when you consider the machine had to index tie to tie and clamp and release a tie each cycle. If you want speed, increase oil flow
 
If I am understanding this concept correctly how would this energy be stored. Del suggested it be stored by kinetic energy via a flywheel. A massive pressure tank with capacity of 3,000 psi?
Right now am considering building another splitter with better design features that have accumulated over 40 years. A basic 28 CFM pump with 20 to 24 HP and great suspension for anywhere service. My cycle times are OK right now, but my splitter suspension could be a little more compact as well as the splitter over all. The accumulator idea probably would not save much if it is going to be portable. Am also considering using a electric motor version for being quiet. Thanks
 
If I am understanding this concept correctly how would this energy be stored. Del suggested it be stored by kinetic energy via a flywheel. A massive pressure tank with capacity of 3,000 psi?
Right now am considering building another splitter with better design features that have accumulated over 40 years. A basic 28 CFM pump with 20 to 24 HP and great suspension for anywhere service. My cycle times are OK right now, but my splitter suspension could be a little more compact as well as the splitter over all. The accumulator idea probably would not save much if it is going to be portable. Am also considering using a electric motor version for being quiet. Thanks

I've got a 28gpm 2 speed pump on an 18hp briggs, 5 inch cylinder. It's way more then enough engine. I'm sure a 15 or even smaller would do fine.
 
It could be done, but there are a lot of design downsides.

Accumulators 101 (or maybe 301)
Accumulators are mostly used with variable pump, constant pressure systems that need high flow in very small portions of the work cycle. For a consumer log splitter, the cost and complexity kill it. Far cheaper and easier to add engine hp and larger pump.

-Space: Accumulator sizes are overall volume, say '5 gallon'. The amount of oil they discharge relates to the gas charge pressure, initial charge pressure from the pump, and the minimum pressure needed at the end of the discharge part of the cycle. Most of the cylinder extend would be done by the accumulator since it was charged to high pressure. Cylinder would extend quicky under no load, but the internal pressure would rapidly drop down pretty low, then when the cylinder hit the load, the pressure would rise slower because part of pump flow goes to recharge the accumulator as it builds pressure against the load. Because the max and min pressures are so far apart, quite a large accumulator size would be needed even for a small oil discharge volume.
There are ways around this, to use the accumulator for fast advance, then valve it out of the circuit while the pump moves the load at high pressure, then put the accumulator back on pump to recharge during the idle time.
It would work pretty well putting the accumulator on the large volume/low pressure side of the pump, but that would require a two section pump with outside unloading and check valves, not the common (and cheap) two stage pump built into one chunk of cast iron housing.
Not something the average consumer could maintain though.

Just as a gut feel, no calculations, for a system needing maybe 3/4 gallon of supplement, I'd expect at least a 5 gallon size, maybe 7-12 or 10.

-Cost: Accumulator alone will probably exceed $500, plus valving. 3000 psi ones of 5 gallon size are 1/4 inch thick steel shells about like an oxygen torch tank.

-Cycle time may not improve. Depending on when in the cycle the accumulator discharges to help the cylinder, and when it is recharging and robbing flow, the splitting portion of the cycle might not improve, and might even get worse. The overall cycle time probably won't change, but what part of the cycle is fast or slow depends on the circuit design. Extend matters, retract not so much as I am reaching for another piece of wood.

-Time between cycles must be enough to recharge. My typical use is get the wood into the space and start the next extend asap so there may not be time to recharge.

-Increased heat generation and poor energy efficiency. With an open center, fixed gear pump, the pressure varies as needed by the load, so the system is pretty efficient. With an accumulator charged at high pressure, then metered down to low pressure across valving, that energy is concerted to heat. In most systems, that heat is a small part of the work cycle, but in this application a LOT of energy would be going to heat.

-A fixed pump means a fixed cylinder speed and it is easily controlled. With an accumulator, it becomes a constant pressure system and the cylinder speed could vary a LOT based on load. Might come out like a catapult at the beginning of the cycle because the accumulator would have been charged at high pressure. The accumulator would have to be before the control valve, not on the cylinder side of the valve. With a fixed pump, we basically pull the valve lever full stroke and the cylinder moves at a known maximum speed. With accumulator circuit, either we have to carefully feather the lever with each cycle, or add a flow control valve. Both of those options convert energy to heat.

-Complexity. Fixed gear pump and valve and cylinder is about as simple as a hydraulic circuit can get, but how many 'my log splitter don't work' questions show up? Imagine adding accumulator, gas precharge, unloading and sequence valve pressure settings, etc. to the mix of issues.


Notes, comments other than accumulator:
-The flywheel energy storage idea has more potential I think. Still easier to have bigger motor and bigger pump, especially given the number of hours a splitter operates per year.

-Larger rod cylinder only helps in retract direction. Extend speed is the same. Flow out of the closed side on retract must be checked carefully for line sizes, etc.

-Larger rod might allow using regeneration in the extend direction. (Regen won't work in retract.) Smaller rods are way too fast in regeneration. Regen in extend can help speed a lot but ONLY during unloaded portion of the cycle. It does not help the loaded portion when the cylinder hits the load (unless the load pressure is really really low), nor in the retract portion. So, if the unloaded part of the extend cycle is only a few inches, speeding it up a lot won't help the overall time much.

Enough.....kcj
 
It could be done, but there are a lot of design downsides.

Accumulators 101 (or maybe 301)
Accumulators are mostly used with variable pump, constant pressure systems that need high flow in very small portions of the work cycle. For a consumer log splitter, the cost and complexity kill it. Far cheaper and easier to add engine hp and larger pump.

-Space: Accumulator sizes are overall volume, say '5 gallon'. The amount of oil they discharge relates to the gas charge pressure, initial charge pressure from the pump, and the minimum pressure needed at the end of the discharge part of the cycle. Most of the cylinder extend would be done by the accumulator since it was charged to high pressure. Cylinder would extend quicky under no load, but the internal pressure would rapidly drop down pretty low, then when the cylinder hit the load, the pressure would rise slower because part of pump flow goes to recharge the accumulator as it builds pressure against the load. Because the max and min pressures are so far apart, quite a large accumulator size would be needed even for a small oil discharge volume.
There are ways around this, to use the accumulator for fast advance, then valve it out of the circuit while the pump moves the load at high pressure, then put the accumulator back on pump to recharge during the idle time.
It would work pretty well putting the accumulator on the large volume/low pressure side of the pump, but that would require a two section pump with outside unloading and check valves, not the common (and cheap) two stage pump built into one chunk of cast iron housing.
Not something the average consumer could maintain though.

Just as a gut feel, no calculations, for a system needing maybe 3/4 gallon of supplement, I'd expect at least a 5 gallon size, maybe 7-12 or 10.

-Cost: Accumulator alone will probably exceed $500, plus valving. 3000 psi ones of 5 gallon size are 1/4 inch thick steel shells about like an oxygen torch tank.

-Cycle time may not improve. Depending on when in the cycle the accumulator discharges to help the cylinder, and when it is recharging and robbing flow, the splitting portion of the cycle might not improve, and might even get worse. The overall cycle time probably won't change, but what part of the cycle is fast or slow depends on the circuit design. Extend matters, retract not so much as I am reaching for another piece of wood.

-Time between cycles must be enough to recharge. My typical use is get the wood into the space and start the next extend asap so there may not be time to recharge.

-Increased heat generation and poor energy efficiency. With an open center, fixed gear pump, the pressure varies as needed by the load, so the system is pretty efficient. With an accumulator charged at high pressure, then metered down to low pressure across valving, that energy is concerted to heat. In most systems, that heat is a small part of the work cycle, but in this application a LOT of energy would be going to heat.

-A fixed pump means a fixed cylinder speed and it is easily controlled. With an accumulator, it becomes a constant pressure system and the cylinder speed could vary a LOT based on load. Might come out like a catapult at the beginning of the cycle because the accumulator would have been charged at high pressure. The accumulator would have to be before the control valve, not on the cylinder side of the valve. With a fixed pump, we basically pull the valve lever full stroke and the cylinder moves at a known maximum speed. With accumulator circuit, either we have to carefully feather the lever with each cycle, or add a flow control valve. Both of those options convert energy to heat.

-Complexity. Fixed gear pump and valve and cylinder is about as simple as a hydraulic circuit can get, but how many 'my log splitter don't work' questions show up? Imagine adding accumulator, gas precharge, unloading and sequence valve pressure settings, etc. to the mix of issues.


Notes, comments other than accumulator:
-The flywheel energy storage idea has more potential I think. Still easier to have bigger motor and bigger pump, especially given the number of hours a splitter operates per year.

-Larger rod cylinder only helps in retract direction. Extend speed is the same. Flow out of the closed side on retract must be checked carefully for line sizes, etc.

-Larger rod might allow using regeneration in the extend direction. (Regen won't work in retract.) Smaller rods are way too fast in regeneration. Regen in extend can help speed a lot but ONLY during unloaded portion of the cycle. It does not help the loaded portion when the cylinder hits the load (unless the load pressure is really really low), nor in the retract portion. So, if the unloaded part of the extend cycle is only a few inches, speeding it up a lot won't help the overall time much.

Enough.....kcj

I had to add a pilot controlled check valve on my retract, was about 70gpm flow through the valve and 1/2" line otherwise.

Basically most of the oil bypasses the valve on retract through a 1" line
 
OK thank you guys explaining that. i now can see why it hasn't been done.

I was really just kinda wondering. i have a honda 270 engine on a 2 stage 16 gpm pump and i think its pretty fast maybe one day ill look at getting a 18 gpm pump but right now my body is the slowest part
 
Kevin, I am setting in the back row taking notes and have a question. If the accumulator is plumbed before the control valve, would it not create a hammer effect as it loaded and unloaded under pressure during the cylinder cycle.

Second, the flywheel concept. My first thoughts where mounting the flywheel on the engine is the intent. My thoughts are the purpose would be to allow a smaller engine to pull a higher volume pump, at a lower pressure. That when the engine pump combo encountered a piece of wood that that required more hp to build the pressure needed, the heavy flywheel would provide the kinetic energy needed to provide a momentary boost of hyd pressure without stalling the engine. Might work, sometimes, other times, not so well. I believe even if it did work, the stress on the pump shaft would eventually lead to shaft breakage. Any thoughts on this?
 
Hi Bill

1. hammer effect, not really. Any water hammer effect in a system is caused by something closing rapidly when a load or oil column is moving fast.
If it was on the cylinder side of the valve, there would be no speed control. If the load increased, the cylinder would stall. out while the accumulator takes flow and builds pressure. Then, when the wood split and the load dropped, the acumulator would discharge supplying oil really fast and the cylinder would accelerate rapidly, until it hit the end of stroke. Now that would be a hammer effect.
I worked on a machine that someone put an accumulator after the control valve in a motor spinning circuit. I think they were trying to cushion out spikes or something. When the valve shifted to start the motor, the inertia of the motor caused the accumulator to charge up to relief valve pressure and the motor spun up pretty slow. However, once it reached pump flow, the accumulator kept discharging into the motor and it kept accelerating to a zillion rpm. When the accumulator was empty, the motor was spinning way faster than pump could supply, and it cavitated and made a horrendous noise. I am surprised the motor and spindle held up, as it accerated up to about 3x its rated design speed, then cavitated.

2. The flywheel thing. I don't think it's a viable solution, only a concept or idea. It would work like a SuperSplit in that the wheels would store energy mechanically instead of hydraulically in an accumulator. It would only power through short time intervals and if the duty cycle didn't allow the flywheels to be spun back up to speed, it would not help. The pump shaft would have to take the torque of the maximum psi and flow, which would be higher than the engine torque, but not excessively shock loaded because the relief valve would limit the pressure. That would not be too hard. But the flywheel at 3600 rpm might not have enough energy storage to last through more than a big knot or something.
Your approach is better: Powerstroke diesel engine with overkill torque.
How is that coming along?
 
Bought a boat, sooooo. I have been procrastinating getting back on it. Got house up for sale and trying to get something going on where we plan to build. Got too figure something out for temporary storage, I got to much junk.
 
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