What's everyone's thoughts on back cuts first on back leaners. I watched a video where the back cut was done first and started wedging to prevent the tree from leaning back even more. The explanation was that if you cut the face cut first, the tree would have a tendency to lean backwards even more. Kinda essentially cutting the trigger wood which would actually be the face cut. Of course a cable would be installed in the tree to pull it over as well as the wedges. Thoughts?
Back cuts first
- Thread starter Hendog
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I'm no faller.
Talked to a logger about how big leaf maples would sit back. These were small trees and didn't have much room for wedges. They weren't leaning. He basically said that was a common thing for that species and one way to deal with it was to do the "back cut" first. But it differs from what you describe in that no cables or ropes were to be used.
I assume that pounding wedges in a larger tree would keep it from sitting back and pinching the bar. And, there's only so much you can do against a lean. But remember, I'm not an expert on this. This is just from years of being around logging operations and seeing what goes on, and asking a question or two.
There are always trees that don't behave. One time, while talking to the father of a father son falling duo, a saw up the hill was shut off and some very loud, but unoriginal expletives were being shouted. The rant did not stop. I asked the father if we should run up and see if all was OK and he said his son was all right because he was yelling so much. It turned out that a small tree, with no room for a wedge sat back and kind of bent the bar of his saw. These guys, especially the old man, were excellent fallers. Stuff happens.
The shouting went something like this: *&^% *&^% *&^% A *&^%^*& ten dollar (*&^(* tree ruined a **&%$ thousand dollar saw *&^% *&^^% etc. (Repeat)
If you can get a line in the tree and have enough pulling power to get control of the tree there is, in my opinion, no reason to back cut first. The line will keep the tree from setting back.
If you don't have enough pulling force or leverage on the tree to keep the tree from setting back, you don't have enough leverage to pull the tree over then either. If the tree is leaning that heavy or is that big then it's probably not a candidate for being wedged over either.
IMO back cut first is a valid technique but is only necessary in very specific situations. It has to be a tree of a very certain size. A tree that is very wide on the stump you should be able to cut a face and enough back cut in to set a wedge before the tree starts to set back. Given the size of tree that lends itself perfectly to back cut first technique if you are able to get a line in it and pull, there's no reason to back cut first.
Also, in my opinion, back cut first is not a technique for someone that needs to ask on an internet forum if it's a good idea. This is an advanced technique and should not be attempted by beginners or if something valuable is within the fall radius of the tree. Now, if the tree is in the middle of nowhere and you just want to give it a shot with a line in the tree as a back up. Go for it. Cutting trees is fun and trying new things is a great way to learn. Just be careful and have someone there with you.
If you don't have enough pulling force or leverage on the tree to keep the tree from setting back, you don't have enough leverage to pull the tree over then either. If the tree is leaning that heavy or is that big then it's probably not a candidate for being wedged over either.
IMO back cut first is a valid technique but is only necessary in very specific situations. It has to be a tree of a very certain size. A tree that is very wide on the stump you should be able to cut a face and enough back cut in to set a wedge before the tree starts to set back. Given the size of tree that lends itself perfectly to back cut first technique if you are able to get a line in it and pull, there's no reason to back cut first.
Also, in my opinion, back cut first is not a technique for someone that needs to ask on an internet forum if it's a good idea. This is an advanced technique and should not be attempted by beginners or if something valuable is within the fall radius of the tree. Now, if the tree is in the middle of nowhere and you just want to give it a shot with a line in the tree as a back up. Go for it. Cutting trees is fun and trying new things is a great way to learn. Just be careful and have someone there with you.
Hey why not? I often will bore cut back straight thru to the front when I don't want to spend time in front where the face cut will be then a face, then back cut to let it free. Just usually If I back cut then face cut on a heavy leaner, it will close right up on the saw. But I'm sure there is a scenario where that works. Be cool to see a video to show where and what tree species. But if the "lean" is 90 degree plus or minus away from the desired fall, why not? They tend to be sticky anyway. SO not going to pinch just worry about pulls and not being in the line of fall.
Leaving the face allows you to add a bunch of wedges and lift the small or medium ones. The big stuff needs a rigging line or a push from another tree maybe two or three behind it. I'm no pro feller but lined up four one day because two were leaning back. Cut the back and a shallow face. They break when hit hard enough. Had a line on the back tree to get things moving good. Block with a redirect hooked to a truck with a front diff locker pulling up off the block point. Send it. One guy one truck.
I have done it many times on Ash leaning 180 from the direction I want it to fall. Usually larger than 20” dbh as you need to have room to drive the wedges in. Yes I have equipment to pull the tree over but if you rely on equipment all the time then your screwed when you can’t get equipment to the tree because you don’t know how to lift a tree.
I have also pounded the wedges in, face cut and the tree just stands there looking at you. Had to drive back to the shop and get a sledge hamer and a steel splitting wedge. After many, many swings and driving the steel wedge in, it finally went over. That tree was a good 30” dbh.
I have also pounded the wedges in, face cut and the tree just stands there looking at you. Had to drive back to the shop and get a sledge hamer and a steel splitting wedge. After many, many swings and driving the steel wedge in, it finally went over. That tree was a good 30” dbh.
Most times you just need a shotline to get into a high spot and give it a nudge.
Around structure my rope always comes out for back leaners.
I'm all about ropes for backup, but just because one is placing the wedge before making the face doesn't necessitate a rope....the remaining conditions determine that.
The wind or a slight breeze determines a lot. Sometimes you gotta wait for it?
I worked in Hurricanes and yes it does have a hell of an effect, I have seen them go 180 from the lean.The wind or a slight breeze determines a lot. Sometimes you gotta wait for it?
The wind or a slight breeze determines a lot. Sometimes you gotta wait for it?
Absolutely!
@firekindler has a story of watching a tree spin on the stump, at least one full rotation, when the wind picked it up as the hinge finished breaking. Maybe he'll come share it....?
Recently cutting tall skinny pines in the wind I back cut and wedged first.
That is often the best way to approach them, especially if they have any kind of backweight or lean against the target.
I fuggin hate dealing with any/all pine. They planted that crap all under/along powerlines around here in the 70s and 80s.
Another thing about pines is minding the hinge height and how much distance between closing the face. They have less chance of pulling wood and/or chairing with a just-big-enough-face to close on and get it off the stump. Leaving a high hinge will exacerbate the pull. Having too much time to drop before closing and exiting will do the same.
On dead pines that I'm trying to steer, I'll make my back cut 1-1.5" above the face to give me a bit more time to get the wedges working before the tree moves. I've yet to make the back cut first because it just kinda sounds like a bad idea. I know most can't do this, but if it's that sketchy either I won't cut it or I'll get a tractor to give it a nudge. It's amazing how much the back cut height will affect a tree's movement. I love cutting green firs and pines, dead ones are more interesting because they don't have as much mass and tend to hang up more.
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