echomeister
ArboristSite Operative
cmon now don't leave still out of the group
Why do "Chinesium" chainsaws need a richer oil mix?
- Thread starter Chucksta
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I know Husqvarna manuals for Sweden and most countries besides USA and Canada recommend 33:1 in any saw over 80cc.
I did not say anything about whether Stihl or Husky had such patents. I merely pointed out that such patents exist.
True, equipment is not normally PRICED by the amount it weighs. But I was talking about cost, not price, being influenced by weight. The fact is, raw material cost is heavily influenced by weight. And I am sure Stihl buys the casting metal and other materials in bulk, so its cost per pound should be the same on an MS-660 as it is on a 261. Lower sales volume can affect manufacturing cost, but the curve flattens out. There is a production level at which you have to add more production lines, which negates any labor savings based on volume. I don't know what production rate a single line makes for chainsaws, but I would bet that even the 660 has enough volume to keep at least one line at 100% capacity. Yes, this is speculative, but it is based on having experience on the cost structure of chemical process equipment as well as having worked on an assembly line for consumer built-in appliances such as bathroom exhaust fans. I also have experience managing my former employer's sales and engineering office in Shanghai, Chine in the late 1990s through the early 2000s. We were selling US-made equipment to China. We also looked into manufacturing in China, and back then, the variable cost was about 60% of the US cost mainly due to lower labor cost. Today, the wage gap is smaller than it was then, so the variable cost is probably more like 80% compared to US manufacturing, for the kind of equipment we made. I am not sure how that stacks up for chainsaws, but I am extremely skeptical that the Chinese clone saw costs are 25% of the US, Japanese or German products. Therefore, I am pretty sure the profit margin is higher on the larger saws made by the big boys. Don't get me wrong; I am not planning to buy a Chinese saw. I will stick to my MS500i. I am just glad I got it a couple of years ago for $1180 instead of nearly $1700 today.
I'm going to run 40:1 in my China 372 and plan on 32:1 when I use it with a mill to cut fir, spruce and cedar.
From the bunch of videos online I've watched about these saws that seems to be the rough consensus. Ive seen here and elsewhere talk of 25:1 for a mill but I think that's for bigger saws with longer bars and hardwood.
Someone correct me if I'm wrong. As for oil type or brand I've never noticed a difference. If I had a high dollar saw used several hours a day I'd probably go with better oil. More important I think is the gas. I do use a little Marvel in it whether that does any good idk
I'm taking it home this summer and using the 372 clone with a 24in bar to mill some 6x6 and 8x8's so we will see how it goes
GeneralKayoss
ArboristSite Operative
That's how I run mine 30:1 for milling, 40:1 for general use.
The general consensus on oil seems to be "as long as it's name brand, send it." Not brave enough to try chinese 2 stroke oil yet
. I prefer 93 octane non ethanol, but I'll run 90 in a pinch.Adding more oil during break in is counter productive on a premix system. Oil injection is a different matter.
Chucksta
What could possibly go wrong??
Just ( . ) ( . ) s.. LOL.. So.. Here we are .. back at again. But at least the thread has morphed back to some semblance of my original question..
So, to "poke the bear" a little bit more. Let's get into a bit of a different detail.. Shall we?
IIRC, "back in the day", and truly, I don't know if this is still a "thing", you broke an engine in on Dino oil, before switching to Synthetic. The theory being that Dino oil allowed the rings to seat properly, and if Synthetic oil was used off the get go, there was a risk that the rings would never properly seat, as there was a limited time frame for that to happen. The cross hatching in the bore would be gone before the rings had mated to the bore.
So.. once again .. "back in the day", I bought a brand new '02 Subaru WRX. It was stated in the manual to use Dino oil until the rings seated, before switching to Synthetic. Also, not to exceed 4,000 R.P.M. for the first 1,600 Km. ( 1,000 miles). ( Darn.. that was hard!), and not to travel at a constant velocity, and to vary throttle and speed settings. At about 20,000 KM, ( 12,000 Miles), the mileage and performance suddenly took a big improvement. Time for full synthetic!!
At 300,000 Km, ( 180,000 miles), it still hauled butt like a scalded cat and, didn't ever burn a drop of oil. Did the break in matter? No way to know. Did it ever start to burn oil? I don't know. 'cause I sold it.
Maybe any saw, Chinesium or not, should be broken in with a rich mixture of dino oil before being introduced to a "skinnier" mixture of premium synthetic?
Then again, realistically, who would go through 5 tanks of fuel (25 to 1 dino mix), without breaking 8,000 R.P.M., and 2/3rd throttle?
What does YOUR Stihl, Husky , Echo, etc., manual say about it? Or, do they just say to use a particular oil, ( which , arguably, today, is a premium synthetic)?
Have the manual's instructions on break in changed in the last 20 years? If so , that would indicate a change in metallurgy, and tolerances, and possibly advancement in ( dino vs synthetic ) lubrication.
There is also another school of thought, although it's in a minority, that when breaking in with synthetic oil, that beating the living snot out of it is your best bet.. Yeah, yeah.. I know what you're thinking, but hear me out.. It's the combustion pressures that slam the rings against the walls of the cylinder, and force them into the cross hatching to seat them. The harder you run it, the harder you push the compression rings into the walls.
But, seriously, with a chain saw, you usually start off with a 50 to 1 (ish) ratio, right out of the Dealership.. And the chances of you not pegging it in the first tank, is pretty much zero. It's usually a case of " Let' see how this dog eats!!"
It'd actually be cool to have someone who runs saws all day, every day, buy two identical saws.. Break one in with 25 to 1 dino oil, low R.P.M.. low throttle., 10 tanks of fuel, and then switch to 50 to 1 Premium synthetic, and run the other one out of the box at 50 to 1, premium synthetic, and beat it like a red headed step child.. And for the Amsoil haters, a third one, with Amsoil Saber, at 70 to 100 to 1, and beat the living snot out of it right off the get go. Clock the hours or total tanks of fuel, and see what coughs up it's cookies first. But, it'd have to be someone who runs all day .. every day.. Ya wouldn't want to wait decades for the results..
Well.. that third one is because I've been running Amsoil Saber at 70 to 1 in all my stuff.. never an issue.. But then again, some of you guys put more hours on a saw in a month, than I used to in a year. I love being retired!!.
Gentlemen!! Your thoughts, and observations..
And please.. no )_(&^ing contests..
So, to "poke the bear" a little bit more. Let's get into a bit of a different detail.. Shall we?
IIRC, "back in the day", and truly, I don't know if this is still a "thing", you broke an engine in on Dino oil, before switching to Synthetic. The theory being that Dino oil allowed the rings to seat properly, and if Synthetic oil was used off the get go, there was a risk that the rings would never properly seat, as there was a limited time frame for that to happen. The cross hatching in the bore would be gone before the rings had mated to the bore.
So.. once again .. "back in the day", I bought a brand new '02 Subaru WRX. It was stated in the manual to use Dino oil until the rings seated, before switching to Synthetic. Also, not to exceed 4,000 R.P.M. for the first 1,600 Km. ( 1,000 miles). ( Darn.. that was hard!), and not to travel at a constant velocity, and to vary throttle and speed settings. At about 20,000 KM, ( 12,000 Miles), the mileage and performance suddenly took a big improvement. Time for full synthetic!!
At 300,000 Km, ( 180,000 miles), it still hauled butt like a scalded cat and, didn't ever burn a drop of oil. Did the break in matter? No way to know. Did it ever start to burn oil? I don't know. 'cause I sold it.
Maybe any saw, Chinesium or not, should be broken in with a rich mixture of dino oil before being introduced to a "skinnier" mixture of premium synthetic?
Then again, realistically, who would go through 5 tanks of fuel (25 to 1 dino mix), without breaking 8,000 R.P.M., and 2/3rd throttle?
What does YOUR Stihl, Husky , Echo, etc., manual say about it? Or, do they just say to use a particular oil, ( which , arguably, today, is a premium synthetic)?
Have the manual's instructions on break in changed in the last 20 years? If so , that would indicate a change in metallurgy, and tolerances, and possibly advancement in ( dino vs synthetic ) lubrication.
There is also another school of thought, although it's in a minority, that when breaking in with synthetic oil, that beating the living snot out of it is your best bet.. Yeah, yeah.. I know what you're thinking, but hear me out.. It's the combustion pressures that slam the rings against the walls of the cylinder, and force them into the cross hatching to seat them. The harder you run it, the harder you push the compression rings into the walls.
But, seriously, with a chain saw, you usually start off with a 50 to 1 (ish) ratio, right out of the Dealership.. And the chances of you not pegging it in the first tank, is pretty much zero. It's usually a case of " Let' see how this dog eats!!"
It'd actually be cool to have someone who runs saws all day, every day, buy two identical saws.. Break one in with 25 to 1 dino oil, low R.P.M.. low throttle., 10 tanks of fuel, and then switch to 50 to 1 Premium synthetic, and run the other one out of the box at 50 to 1, premium synthetic, and beat it like a red headed step child.. And for the Amsoil haters, a third one, with Amsoil Saber, at 70 to 100 to 1, and beat the living snot out of it right off the get go. Clock the hours or total tanks of fuel, and see what coughs up it's cookies first. But, it'd have to be someone who runs all day .. every day.. Ya wouldn't want to wait decades for the results..
Well.. that third one is because I've been running Amsoil Saber at 70 to 1 in all my stuff.. never an issue.. But then again, some of you guys put more hours on a saw in a month, than I used to in a year. I love being retired!!.
Gentlemen!! Your thoughts, and observations..
And please.. no )_(&^ing contests..
Chainsaws dont really cut at anything less than full throttle, you cant run them easy to break them in like a car.
For break in on my saws which happen to be all chinese saws all I do is take a bunch of extra breaks and not cut non stop for the first tank of gas. The rings wont seat until you run at full power/speed for a bit, the extra breaks are so it doesnt over heat during break in as the motor is a little too tight and runs hot for the first tank or two.
For break in on my saws which happen to be all chinese saws all I do is take a bunch of extra breaks and not cut non stop for the first tank of gas. The rings wont seat until you run at full power/speed for a bit, the extra breaks are so it doesnt over heat during break in as the motor is a little too tight and runs hot for the first tank or two.
Chucksta
What could possibly go wrong??
Yup... That's pretty much what I meant.. Just looking for the different opinions on pegging it with a rich dino oil mixture, not pegging it, whatever..
I can't remember ever seeing a comparison between the various options for a break in.. That means a comparison that has some standards and reputable results,, I'm sure " project farm" could do a good job of it, but on this site, his opinions aren't highly respected..
Thr only break in that happens in a two cycle is for the rings to seat. This only happens with ample load. Run them like you stole them from day one is what I do and have done for many years.
echomeister
ArboristSite Operative
How do you know if the rings have seated. My G5800 smoked a bit for the first few minutes of running. I didn't run it hard just trimmed a few limbs. After that the smoking stopped.
Two stroke will smoke a bit until they come upntonfull temp. Especially if your tuned rich.
I woukd love to see PF do such a comparison...NOT!Yup... That's pretty much what I meant.. Just looking for the different opinions on pegging it with a rich dino oil mixture, not pegging it, whatever..
I can't remember ever seeing a comparison between the various options for a break in.. That means a comparison that has some standards and reputable results,, I'm sure " project farm" could do a good job of it, but on this site, his opinions aren't highly respected..
This Chinesium one says 25:1 right on it. It came with a manual but of course I didn't read it. I run it 32:1 dominator just like I do anything else. I run a new saw just like and old saw. I have never done any type of break in except for maybe some heat cycles on a few of them. I got this little joncutter last year for $80 delivered. Bought a new oregon bar and chain on clearance at Walmart for $20. Used it several times, so far so good. 
Chucksta
What could possibly go wrong??
You know the rings have seated, when the saw "wakes up" .. somewhere between the 5th and 10th tank of fuel. There's no other variable that would account for the increased performance. I'd attribute the initial smoking to the assembly lubricant being dissolved in the crankcase, by the fresh fuel mix, and getting burned in the combustion process. Kinda like when you fog 'em for the Winter, and then they blow blue on the first Spring start. As 2 strokes only have 2 compression rings, and not a third oil control ring, like a car or 4 stroke, to me .. that makes sense. I've "over fogged" a few.. and they can partially foul the plug on the next start up.
When I store my sleds, I fog them out, and then, in the fall, I fire them up with the fogging oil, and then swap in a new set of plugs for the season.
Actually up untill a few years ago the usa manuals said the same thing for "severe use situations."
One of the more fun things I got to do while being a diesel mechanic was running in engines on the dyno and performance testing. Rings need dynamic load to seat properly and quickly. It's very easy to see on the dyno, power output increases, hp and torque curves jump up, it's a fairly quick thing to happen on the dyno. Saw just cutting wood don't see nearly the consistent load you get on a dyno, so it takes longer.
The synthetic vs Dino oil has been bs for the past 20 years or so. Dino oil is so refined these days some of it is even classed as a synthetic. Won't effect break in period much if at all. It's all about the load on the rings in a 2 stroke, there's nothing else to wear in.
All true @sean donato. The old wives tales just won't end.
The other thing is all modern, certified oils are at least partially synthetic. The idea that synthetic oil is so great it prohibits break in is laughable.
You will find plenty of them. They expire after 14 years.
One example of such a (expired) design patent (ornamental design for a chain saw).
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