Power Products Thread....any and all info welcome.

wigglesworth · Sep 9, 2010

I have recently acquired a few Power Products powered saws. For some reason there is little to no info on the web about them, other than they were used in saws, karts, mowers and such. They are dead nuts simple engines, that make good power, but there seems to be a lack of interest in the general population of chainsaw idiots such as myself. Not real sure why though??

So, what models you got, and what info do you have on them?

So far I have acquired a Wards with an AH81 (131cc), a Mono with the AH58 (95cc) and a couple David Bradleys with the AH47 (77cc).

eyolf · Sep 9, 2010

Personally, I tend to view them as a slice of history, interesting and fun, but I disagree with your assessment of them as "having good power"

My first encounter with them was with one of those old power products lawn mowers; that was one of the models with the pressed steel flywheel and the round cylinders. AS time went on and techumseh aquired them, design changes occurred, but I really don't think they were ever really "improved". I think the worst ones were the early uniblock engines in little snowthrowers like the Toro sno-pups...there were a lot of them that had touble holding together for an entire winter in heavy snow areas!

The reed set-up wouldnt pass enough fuel and air to feed the engines past maybe 6000 rpm in the smaller sizes, and the bigger ones probably had trouble exceeding 5000 rpm. But that was OK, because the rod big ends wouldn't hold together long at high RPM anyway...first the rod big end stretches a little, then the needles start brinnelling the journal, and soon everything goes its own way.

But they were loud and put on a good show!

chainsawwhisperer · Sep 9, 2010

Hey Wiggs!
I don't see this ever becoming a 'sticky'. lol

heimannm · Sep 9, 2010

I had the little Mono with the AH47 but sold it to my brother...I still have my Strunk Shur Kut with the AH47, and the Wards/Mono 90 with the AH81. The big one is pretty well worn and doesn't make a lot of HP but is still capable of producing some ear splitting noise.

Little AH47 Mono - gone now

Strunk Shur Kut AH47

Ward/Mono 90 AH81

Mark

Jacob J. · Sep 9, 2010

There's a number of karters running the AH-58s, AH-81s, and AH-82s these days. A number of changes have to be made in order to get these engines to turn serious RPM reliably, as mentioned above and make good power.

The port timing in the 58s and 81s has to be changed quite a bit and the reciprocating assembly lightened. Different needle rollers for the big end of the rod and in some cases, a different rod altogether is used. A different reed block (also mentioned above) is also needed. The stock reed blocks on the 58s and 81s are very poor and have marginal flow characteristics. GEM and Palmini both made aftermarket intakes for all of the Power Products engines. The GEM reed blocks used the Go-Power pyramid reed cage and the Palmini intake used the reed cage from the older, large Homelite saws.

I have one of the GEM and one of the Palmini intakes for the 58 block.

The stock reed blocks on the 58 can be modified from the four narrow stainless steel reeds to two large Nytel reeds, such as those used on the Mac CP-125 stock intake.

Moss, Wiseco, and Fuller all made high-performance scalloped thin-ring pistons for the 58s, 61s, and 81s. I have a NOS unit of the Moss 58 piston.

GEM and Palmini both made all-aluminum box mufflers and tuned exhausts for the 58s and 81/82s. Reproductions of the GEM 58/81 box mufflers are currently being made by Vince Hughes, a long time kart guru.

Wiseco made several different high-compression PP heads including one that was a Bronze alloy which supposedly could absorb an incredible amount of heat.

Eccentric · Sep 9, 2010

I have a Mono built Wards WD60 that's powered by an AH58. Looks a lot like Mark's WD90, except it's gold painted and has oblong tanks, like what's on his AH47 Mono. Haven't done much with it yet. I'll snap a few pics. It has a 24 or 25" hardnose and a loop of 1/2" on it.

One thing's for sure.......................there's TONS of chip/noodle clearance around the clutch on those saws. Bet it'd be a great ripping saw. That's probably all I'll ever use it for, other than running it a bit at GTG's. Might swap an AH81 into it if I stumble accross one cheap.

Somebody posted a link a while ago to an Australian site (possibly to a part of McBob's site IIRC) where there were images of old Kart engine hopup parts flyers. One of them listed stroker cranks for many of the Mac, West Bend and Tecumseh/PP engines. There was a crank listed that took a stock bore AH58 from 5.8 to 6.4 cubes. That'd make my Monkey Wards more interesting, especialy with one of the Kart reed blocks I've seen on feebay. There were stroker cranks for the AH81 as well..............with one taking that engine well over 9 cubes IIRC. I'll see if I can find the link... :cheers:

I'd be interested in bearings and seals, as well as a piston and rings for the AH58 if somebody finds a source......................and REALLY interested in one of them AH58 stroker cranks! :givebeer:

wigglesworth · Sep 9, 2010

chainsawwhisperer said:
Hey Wiggs!
I don't see this ever becoming a 'sticky'. lol

LOL...me either. But heck, there might as well be some info on them somewhere.

wigglesworth · Sep 9, 2010

Jacob J. said:
There's a number of karters running the AH-58s, AH-81s, and AH-82s these days. A number of changes have to be made in order to get these engines to turn serious RPM reliably, as mentioned above and make good power.

The port timing in the 58s and 81s has to be changed quite a bit and the reciprocating assembly lightened. Different needle rollers for the big end of the rod and in some cases, a different rod altogether is used. A different reed block (also mentioned above) is also needed. The stock reed blocks on the 58s and 81s are very poor and have marginal flow characteristics. GEM and Palmini both made aftermarket intakes for all of the Power Products engines. The GEM reed blocks used the Go-Power pyramid reed cage and the Palmini intake used the reed cage from the older, large Homelite saws.

I have one of the GEM and one of the Palmini intakes for the 58 block.

The stock reed blocks on the 58 can be modified from the four narrow stainless steel reeds to two large Nytel reeds, such as those used on the Mac CP-125 stock intake.

Moss, Wiseco, and Fuller all made high-performance scalloped thin-ring pistons for the 58s, 61s, and 81s. I have a NOS unit of the Moss 58 piston.

GEM and Palmini both made all-aluminum box mufflers and tuned exhausts for the 58s and 81/82s. Reproductions of the GEM 58/81 box mufflers are currently being made by Vince Hughes, a long time kart guru.

Wiseco made several different high-compression PP heads including one that was a Bronze alloy which supposedly could absorb an incredible amount of heat.

You can throw that aftermarket 58 stuff in that box headed this way if you want to. :laugh:

I just picked up the AH-58 saw, well most of it, as it has some damage to the flywheel cover and some parts missing, but it fires on a prime, and the P&C is in excellent shape, so its under the bench now waiting on an oppurtunity. I have found a site "Bills vintage Karts", who has quite a bit of PP parts, but am having trouble getting ahold of him.

I do find it odd that others dont think that they are up to snuff in the power department. The 81 powered saw I have doesnt feel underpowered by any means. Heavy as a tank, but seems to pull that big ol' 7/16 chain with ease. I am gonna make a rim drive setup for it and slap some .404 full chisel on it to see if that doesnt speed her up a bit. They deffinetly arent high RPM motors, but have torque to spare IMHO.

RandyMac · Sep 9, 2010

The AH47 wasn't really made to produce loads of power, longevity was it's forte. I have a Lancaster with the 95cc PP motor, it may lack speed, but not power. Chain speed is one part of chainsaw preformance, the ability to maintain speed under load is more important.

Eccentric · Sep 9, 2010

Here's the stroker crank link, posted by Chaugnar in the McCulloch Chainsaws thread.

chaugnar said:
http://macbobaust.com/cranks.html

i want one.

I'm hoping I can run a clutch bell (or adapt complete clutch setup) from another saw, such as a Homelite C-Series on my Monkey Wards, so I can run .404 on it. A rim drive would be best, so I could take advantage of the high grunt factor (and make up for lack of RPM's) of the AH58. A higher pin count rim would make up for less RPM's in this case methinks...

heimannm · Sep 10, 2010

Or you could make your own rim drive set up like someone did for the big saw pictured above.

Not much for looks but it runs amazingly true...

Mark

mweba · Sep 10, 2010

I have owned several but only kept a few. This is my current Mono project.

Would like to note that you have to be carefull when removing the flywheel and clutch on these engines. Seem to have a ramdom application of right and left hand threads.

madhatte · Sep 10, 2010

mweba said:
Would like to note that you have to be carefull when removing the flywheel and clutch on these engines. Seem to have a ramdom application of right and left hand threads.

Yeah, about that... I have a nice DB that WOULD be a runner if only I could get spark, which I would do if only I could get the flywheel off... suggestions?

mweba · Sep 10, 2010

madhatte said:
Yeah, about that... I have a nice DB that WOULD be a runner if only I could get spark, which I would do if only I could get the flywheel off... suggestions?

Some can be stuborne. On this one I used a plastic felling wedge to apply some pressure. Used an aluminum flywheel punch with the nut on the end of the crank to prevent expansion or damage to the threads. Give her a good smack.

madhatte · Sep 10, 2010

Plastic wedges! Great idea!

turtle561 · Sep 10, 2010

The GEM reed blocks used the Go-Power pyramid reed cage and the Palmini intake used the reed cage from the older, large Homelite saws. .[/QUOTE]

thanks jacob j- that brought back a karting memory. had a go-power stuffer with the large homelite pyramid reeds on my clinton A490. boy did that wake it up. eventually ended in breaking the rod, but boy did it fly til then. or so i thought. yee haw

Urbicide · Sep 10, 2010

Those Lauson-Power Products engines (eventually Tecumseh) were used by an incredible number of chain saw manufacturers during the '50s & '60s. For basic information, try to locate some of the early Intertec chain saw service manuals. Most of the companies that used the PP engines are long gone. CPD, up in Anoka Minnesota, is the Tecumseh parts distributor since Tecumseh Inc. went belly up. I had a phone # for CPD, for their tech department, but seem to have lost it. I do remember speaking with a tech named Mike who was very helpful. I don't believe that they ever converted the paper files over to electronic ones. You do have to have the exact engine code for CPD to be able to locate your engine in a large, good old-fashioned book.

I have 4 different brands of saws that each have 2 things in common: They all have AH-47 engines & they are all locked up. Included in the mix are a Lombard, Barker, Monarch, & a Mono. Seems that the recoils get separated from the engines once the engines no longer are able to be turned over.

I don't think that PP ever offered over-sized rings or pistons, only standard sizes.

Tecumseh 2-cycle carburetors seem to all share a common diaphragm and needle & seat, but there may be exceptions. These are fairly easy to locate.

Can anyone recommend a good source of NOS parts?

donthraen · Sep 10, 2010

madhatte said:
Yeah, about that... I have a nice DB that WOULD be a runner if only I could get spark, which I would do if only I could get the flywheel off... suggestions?

I used a hub puller---just put some pressure on it then hit top of puller and off it came

donthraen · Sep 10, 2010

I have a Titan 4100 77cc and it runs real good and strong for its age---You cant compare an old saw to newer saws wen youre talking power cause they changed so much---I would like to See Thea's oldies return with new technology in them

donthraen · Sep 10, 2010

Titan 4100 and it works---I run it with a 20in roller tip bar and 3/4 full chisel chain---Very loud and fun

Power Products Thread....any and all info welcome.

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