pro94lt
Addicted to ArboristSite
Yep
Hot Starting/Vapor Lock Issues (E10?)
- Thread starter Chris-PA
- Start date
Help Support Arborist Forum:
Fuel with alcohol will run cooler that than non. So if vapor situations occur not the fuel related. Thanks
Unless its winter gas I can tell you its very volatile!
Termite
Time To Launch
I proved to myself back in July of 2016 that my 2260 would not vapor lock with AV-Gas. It would with non alcohol pump gas. https://www.arboristsite.com/community/threads/562xp-hot-start.298269/page-11#post-5931139
Trent Curtis
ArboristSite Guru
Well..... I just fell victim to the heat as well (90 degrees).
Went through all three saws in 30 mins (ported 359, ported 372, ported 181).
By the time I got to the 181 I tuned it pig rich and worked it back to just “rich” and let her ride. Made it through with the fat tune...... but still hard starting.
359 and 372 shut off mid cut and were done. 359 would start but stall immediately on throttle. I could actually hear the fuel boiling in the carb on the 359-
This gas can has been laying around since March..... I should have dumped out and replaced. After walking back to the truck the ol gas can was swelled up like a puffer fish.
Heat is terrible for cutting.
Went through all three saws in 30 mins (ported 359, ported 372, ported 181).
By the time I got to the 181 I tuned it pig rich and worked it back to just “rich” and let her ride. Made it through with the fat tune...... but still hard starting.
359 and 372 shut off mid cut and were done. 359 would start but stall immediately on throttle. I could actually hear the fuel boiling in the carb on the 359-
This gas can has been laying around since March..... I should have dumped out and replaced. After walking back to the truck the ol gas can was swelled up like a puffer fish.
Heat is terrible for cutting.
Termite
Time To Launch
"Heat is terrible for cutting. "
AV-Gas, heat doesn't bother it and shelf life is at least 9 years.
AV-Gas, heat doesn't bother it and shelf life is at least 9 years.
Trent Curtis
ArboristSite Guru
I always run non ethanol, and usually with enzyme stabilizer- this batch didn’t have any stabilizer and it sat longer than normal.
Hopefully a fresh tank of fuel will be sufficient- AV gas is spendy.
Termite
Time To Launch
Yes Trent it is a little spendy. I don't use it exclusively but it does have it's advantages.
Chris-PA
Where the Wild Things Are
Based on my understanding of the problem I did a modification to one of my Poulans that has vapor locked badly many times - basically a hole through the top cover to pull outside air directly to the filter. The hole was located to provide some protection against chips and dust. It wasn't the hottest day, but I ran it hard on several month old winter blend E10 and let it heat soak.
No issues, problem solved.
No issues, problem solved.
tdewitt59
New Member
Hey all,
Just to be clear here, ive been reading this forum over and over and trying to pick out all the pros and cons of the discussion.
I too have the issue with "boiling mad gas" in the tank like i just made the chainsaw demons mad as hell, now begs the question of what to do about it.
If the fuel is the issue then what can i do. Im reading switching to AV fuel is a possible solution seeing that it can handle the heat "before ignition" better than standard pump fuel. Seeing that the ethanol fuels have a lower boiling point that good petrol fuels, using the AV fuels would make sense to use in a high heat condition such as a saw.
Im also seeing the separating the ethanol out of the gas, stratifying the fuel with water is a possible solution. and one person, chris from Pa suggests ventilation the carp box allowing more air into the carb box, of which i do agree with, that would make it run a bit cooler.
One thing that i have noticed is that when im on a long, low cut and the exhaust is low and against the wood, the saw will heat up from the exhaust coming back into the saw body and the saw will overheat and im taking it that its vaporlocking at that point. so far ive been able to back out of the wood and recover the cut, letting the saw cool off a bit continuing with the cut.
The two saws that i do have are both Poulins, PP5020AV and the PP4318, the latter number im not sure of but i think thats it. the 5020 i bought and the 4218 i acquired it from a trade.
To be clear, this past weekend i was out cutting, the day was hot in the 90s using regular pump gas with an oil mix cocktail slurrie as normal. Both saws were acting up bad.
So my question to all of you, What is the answer here. Use AV GAS? Separate the ethanol using the water trick? or just buy the wood from some dealer and pay an exuberant amount for wood that is mostly wet and rotten?
Im Tim from Morgantown Wva.
~Cooma Matada~
Just to be clear here, ive been reading this forum over and over and trying to pick out all the pros and cons of the discussion.
I too have the issue with "boiling mad gas" in the tank like i just made the chainsaw demons mad as hell, now begs the question of what to do about it.
If the fuel is the issue then what can i do. Im reading switching to AV fuel is a possible solution seeing that it can handle the heat "before ignition" better than standard pump fuel. Seeing that the ethanol fuels have a lower boiling point that good petrol fuels, using the AV fuels would make sense to use in a high heat condition such as a saw.
Im also seeing the separating the ethanol out of the gas, stratifying the fuel with water is a possible solution. and one person, chris from Pa suggests ventilation the carp box allowing more air into the carb box, of which i do agree with, that would make it run a bit cooler.
One thing that i have noticed is that when im on a long, low cut and the exhaust is low and against the wood, the saw will heat up from the exhaust coming back into the saw body and the saw will overheat and im taking it that its vaporlocking at that point. so far ive been able to back out of the wood and recover the cut, letting the saw cool off a bit continuing with the cut.
The two saws that i do have are both Poulins, PP5020AV and the PP4318, the latter number im not sure of but i think thats it. the 5020 i bought and the 4218 i acquired it from a trade.
To be clear, this past weekend i was out cutting, the day was hot in the 90s using regular pump gas with an oil mix cocktail slurrie as normal. Both saws were acting up bad.
So my question to all of you, What is the answer here. Use AV GAS? Separate the ethanol using the water trick? or just buy the wood from some dealer and pay an exuberant amount for wood that is mostly wet and rotten?
Im Tim from Morgantown Wva.
~Cooma Matada~
Was it real hot out? As soon as the temp drops it should be fine. Thats prob winter gas causing the issue it is October look up winter gas.
tdewitt59
New Member
OK so as to follow up. I did some research and found out the following:
Ethanol has a boiling point of about 175 D/F >degrees Fahrenheit< + - the mixes
Petrol fuels with ethanol, no matter what the percentage mix would be, the ethanol will boil off first causing the vaporlock. By trade im a refrigeration technician and i do look for these type of issues all the time. Identifying the issue was easy, I just had to look at the issue chemically to diagnose the issue.
Where as,...
Petrol gasoline has a boiling point of 295/298 D/F depending on the octane and the mix,
so theres your answer, do the math.
Pure gasoline such as AV fuel or stratified gas would be the answer to the vaporlock issue. Ethanol is just to lite of a fuel to use in hot applications. As far as stratified fuel goes, im not completely sold on the idea of pouring water into fuel to pull the ethanol out, but i will sacrifice a gallon of pump gas just to try it out.
If anyone can verify this assumption, it would be helpful and thanks for the efforts in doing so.
~T~
Ethanol has a boiling point of about 175 D/F >degrees Fahrenheit< + - the mixes
Petrol fuels with ethanol, no matter what the percentage mix would be, the ethanol will boil off first causing the vaporlock. By trade im a refrigeration technician and i do look for these type of issues all the time. Identifying the issue was easy, I just had to look at the issue chemically to diagnose the issue.
Where as,...
Petrol gasoline has a boiling point of 295/298 D/F depending on the octane and the mix,
so theres your answer, do the math.
Pure gasoline such as AV fuel or stratified gas would be the answer to the vaporlock issue. Ethanol is just to lite of a fuel to use in hot applications. As far as stratified fuel goes, im not completely sold on the idea of pouring water into fuel to pull the ethanol out, but i will sacrifice a gallon of pump gas just to try it out.
If anyone can verify this assumption, it would be helpful and thanks for the efforts in doing so.
~T~
Its the Butane they put in for winter gad look up winter gas and boil over.
tdewitt59
New Member
Lone wolf, to answer your question, yes it was hot out, the humidity wasnt too auful bad but yes it was hot out. Ive used these two saws out like this before and the 5020 has given me issues but not like it did this past weekend.
I guess its time to try some AV fuel.
I guess its time to try some AV fuel.
Well I am sure once it cools of out there you can run the junk gas OK, in the meantime get the AV gas.
Chris-PA
Where the Wild Things Are
To be clear this thread was about heat soak vapor lock that occurs after the engine is shut off and sits for a bit. If your saw is overheating while cutting that's something else. Possibly it's set too lean, or perhaps it's just that an 18" bar is at the upper limit for a non-ported PP4218 if it's buried in hardwood.
tdewitt59
New Member
NO honestly if the bar is buried in wood struggling to cut then the saw is stressing and heating up, the only thing that sounds reasonable is that its heating up and vaporlocking due to the heat. As i mentioned before it was a hot day, possibly in the 90s, and yes i was really stressing the saws hard, The only thing i can assess is that they overheated or in this case got hot enuf to boil the ethanol rich gas off while it was running.
The reason i said this is that when i got home and both saws had cooled off, I tried priming them both and they both primed and started. i sat them both on the ground and let them idle for atleast 10 minutes each before i shut them down.
The only thing i can assume is that its the ethanol rich fuel that is the culprit here. As i seen before in one statement earlier that the ethanol boils at about 170 D/F. On a hot day any saw will gt that hot and depending on how its plumed, its quite possible that it would vaporlock.
Ill get some good AV fuel and run it hard,...Ill write back soon and let you all know.
~T~
The reason i said this is that when i got home and both saws had cooled off, I tried priming them both and they both primed and started. i sat them both on the ground and let them idle for atleast 10 minutes each before i shut them down.
The only thing i can assume is that its the ethanol rich fuel that is the culprit here. As i seen before in one statement earlier that the ethanol boils at about 170 D/F. On a hot day any saw will gt that hot and depending on how its plumed, its quite possible that it would vaporlock.
Ill get some good AV fuel and run it hard,...Ill write back soon and let you all know.
~T~
Yes you are correct it's the fuel with Ethanol in it as you have found out it has a way lower boiling point than pure gasoline.
I also went through all this cutting in over 90f+ heat in summer.
I'm in Australia we don't have winter gasoline here it gets up to 40c-100f in summer and yes the Ethanol in the fuel E10 boils no ifs buts or maybes about it.
I also found shutting the saw off it would be impossible to restart without letting it cool down first all my saws and 2T gear do the same running fuel with ethernol in it in summer here.
Is there a solution to this? YES run fuel without ethernol in it in summer.
I experimented with avgas to help diagnose what the problem was with the fuel boiling in my saw's I also did some research on fuel and ethernol as you have.
The avgas worked fine no matter the heat out 100f all day seemed to pick up the lost power back to the stock rated hp as a plus.
All my saw's ran like crap and down on power using E10 in summer but seem ok in the cooler parts of the year running E10.
You can try avgas to help eliminate the problem as I did I then went on knowing it was the Ethanol boiling to find a good pump fuel that has no ethanol in it problem solved.
I better add that when the E10 boils in the tank it literally will not run out of a fuel line if you disconnect it from the carby with the fuel cap still on or even with the fuel cap removed! until it cools down.
I found this out on my 2T mowers and using clear fuel line to help me see what the fuel was doing in the fuel line.
Scottnc
ArboristSite Member
Tried to read every post in case this was mentioned; have an old Mac that was my dads. It started and ran fine but, if you shut it off - good luck getting it started until it cooled. A new metering diaphragm in the carb was the cure. Guess it had a hole so small it didn't affect how it ran, never was able to find it. There was something unique about how the atmosphere side of that daiphragm was vented that might have played a part... don't recall the details, only that I wondered what they were thinking. Bottom line is that fuel made its way to the atmosphere side of the metering diaphragm when the saw was shut off hot.
P.S. E10 is s**t. Besides killing rubber, plastic and aluminum, alcohol is only 50% as efficient as gasoline from an efficiency standpoint - it takes twice as much to do the same amount of work. To put it in automobile parlance; 100% alcohol gets 50% of the mileage of gasoline. Total big government bulls**t subsidy program putting food in your gastank. Thanks George. Putz.
P.S. E10 is s**t. Besides killing rubber, plastic and aluminum, alcohol is only 50% as efficient as gasoline from an efficiency standpoint - it takes twice as much to do the same amount of work. To put it in automobile parlance; 100% alcohol gets 50% of the mileage of gasoline. Total big government bulls**t subsidy program putting food in your gastank. Thanks George. Putz.
