Pin oak insect/bird damage...?

[MzHopsing]

Hi guys - Along with (probably) the majority of midwesterners, we're having a HUGE problem with japanese beetles. My husband and I suspect that might be what has put the holes in one of his prized oaks. I was mowing the other day and it struck me how wilted and sparse the foliage looked with the sun shining through it. I don't recall it looking like this last year. This oak is about 20 years old, about 3' 2" diameter, chest height, 4' 1" near the ground. It's about 45-50' tall. This oak was planted at the same time as another oak, and this one was, until now, doing much better than the second, being so near to a pond and all.

I'm not really familiar with how japanese beetles procreate or whatever, so we're just guessing on the damage. However, our area paper did a piece on the emerald beetle that does damage to the Ash trees, but the holes don't look "D" shaped like the article stated. And this is an oak. Upon further research, it now looks like it's possible this damage was caused by birds. <sigh> We can't really tell how far up the holes go. Yellow-bellied sapsuckers? What other birds might do this? :dunno: Does this oak seem healthy to you guys? Are we freaking out over nothing? And if we're not, what can we do to save/protect this tree? :help:

I included as many pictures as I thought might be helpful. Please let me know if there's anything else you need to see or any other info you need to know.

Thanks for all you do!!!!
MzHopsing

 

[MzHopsing]

I forgot to mention....

Whatever bird/insects doing this, we suspect were the same that caused the death of the pines that were a little closer to the house. One turned brown and was cut down last year, and the second is a goner this year. (You can see this dying pine in the background of the 'oak 04' picture in the attachments here; originally taken to show the thinness of the foliage of the oak.) There were/are holes up and down the trunks of these pines. We never see the birds doing it, but god knows there are plenty of woodpeckers around here.

Thanks again guys/gals -
MzHopsing

 

[Dadatwins]

Jap beetles attack the foilage they are not known as a boring insect. Emerald ash borer attacks ash. There are several borer that attack pines, Pine bark borer ect. There are some oak borers but those holes look like birds to me. I would suggest a mulch ring around the base to keep some moisture around the tree and so it is not competing with the grass. Maybe get an arborist on site to look at the holes up close and determine what is going on.

 

[mantis]

You can dig into one of the holes with a knife to determin what is causing it. If it is a bug you should see sighns pointing to it

 

[S Mc]

MzHopsing, I would strongly recommend you get someone out on site to have a look at your tree. The holes, if caused by birds, aren't mechanically large enough to have caused this much of a stressed appearance. However, birds and insects can be vectors of a variety of pathogens so I would personally want to rule out issues such as Oak Wilt or a general oak decline.

Do you have a picture of the base of the tree? Has there been any damage there? With maintained grass right up to the trunk it is not uncommon to see damage. (This is why we recommend mulch rings around trees as mentioned in a previous post.)

I am also curious as to what caused the death of two pines in a relatively short time. Granted this could be (and likely is) totally unrelated; however, it would be good to figure out what is going on there. What has changed on the property that the trees don't like?

So with so many questions to be answered, an onsite expert is warranted. Good luck.

Sylvia

 

[treeseer]

The holes look like light feeding by sapsucker; see attached.

lots of tree issues in your landscape; an assessment by a pro on site is warranted; see www.treesaregood.com to find someone local.

 

[MzHopsing]

Thank you!!

Thank you very much for the quick responses! I suspected this wasn't just "in our heads" as a friend of ours was over yesterday and noted that this oak didn't look right either.

I shall post pictures of the base this afternoon after I get off work, though I didn't notice anything amiss there - but I'm no expert like you folks.

Thanks again -
MzHopsing

 

[MzHopsing]

Pix of trunk base

Sorry for the delay, I've got pictures of the trunk base here, from a couple different angles, but nothing seems amiss except maybe an ant colony I disturbed when pulling a vine/weed out of the way for the first shot.

I poked around one of the holes, and it does appear that it was just a bird doing it's thing; no varmints or bugs, thank God.

My husband talked to an arborist today, and described the symptoms to him as I noted above. Apparently this guy believes that this tree is in need of some iron...? He said (and this is not verbatim, obviously) that sometimes in the 20 to 30 year range some oaks show this need (for whatever reason) and it's an easy remedy. We are recommended to go purchase some 'iron-ite' at Farm and Home, and there should be visible improvement within a few days to a couple of weeks, once applied around the tree drip-line and watered in. Does this sound plausible to you folks?? :dunno:

The arborist also agreed that the birds that did in the pines were looking for more at the oak, but it doesn't provide the goodies that the pines did, but he agreed with Sylvia's opinion that what is troubling the oak is separate from what happened to the pines. Strangely, we can see no illness or damage to any of the other fir trees nearby. Just those two pines. Must have been tasty trees.

One other thing I forgot to mention :chatter: is the flood we had here on July 12. We got 2ft of water in the crawl space of the house, and water reached easily past the first few limbs of this oak, probably 7 or 8 feet at least. It didn't last more than a day, but just thought I'd mention it. I included a picture of this as well, please note the corn field debris (along with one of my planting barrels that floated into the yard) up to the chainlink fence on the right side of the picture. The water was higher than THAT. The oak is on the left side.

Thanks, as always, for your great advice!! :yourock:
MzHopsing

 

[S Mc]

MzHopsing, the flood information is actually very important as Pin oaks are only intermediate in their tolerance to flooding. Flooding robs the soil of oxygen and can cause numerous issues including death of plant if the tree is flooded for an extended period of time. One of the symptoms of flooding is a wilting of leaves (among many other symptoms). This could be a key factor in what you are seeing.

I do not see iron chlorosis in your pictures so would be hesitant to recommend a mineral additive. A typical iron deficiency would have the appearance of a yellow leaf with green veins. Did this arborist come out to your home (it sounded from your post that your husband talked to him but not necessarily on site).

You said that the arborist said birds killed your pine trees? Were they completed girdled? I must confess that whereas I have seen trees with a tremendous amount of bird activity I have not seen them kill pine trees (not saying it can't happen, just that in 24 years I haven't seen it).

Again, the holes in your tree (if caused by birds, and that is certainly what they look like) are not big or significant enough to cause any real damage to the tree UNLESS the birds brought in a pathogen.


Sylvia

 

[Dadatwins]

Looks like a lot of soil around the base was the area filled in during the last few years? I would scrap away some of that soil and get some air to the root system, the tree might be suffereing from lack of oxygen. After the soil is gone replace it with a mulch ring, kind of hard with the water table where it is and the grass probably helps the erosion but the tree will like the mulch better.

 

[MzHopsing]

Yes, Sylvia, I was afraid that maybe the flooding had more to do with the oak's trouble than was first assumed. When the water was standing, you could see the air bubbles coming to the surface as the air was forced from the ground. Flooding to the extent that we had last month is EXTREMELY rare. There's heavy rains that push the culvert to the limits at times, but must admit that those times it surely must swamp those oak roots. My husband always assumed that it was it's proximity to the pond that has given the tree it's (previous) vigor and height, but the flooding, even as intermittent as it is, might be causing it's current problem...?

I can't recall any soil being added underneath the oak, at least not in the last few years. I would have noticed any fresh earth, since I do the mowing... he does fill in some dips with earth to straighten things out from time to time, but not near the tree recently. How far down, and how far around do you think we should pull earth up? I do like the idea of giving the roots some air. The ground is not as saturated as it was last month, however... yeah, the water table has been kinda high lately. <sigh>

I'm going to have to ask my husband more details about what the arborist said - no, he did not come out, just took information over the phone. I'll have to have him call again. The pines were really done over by the birds. It looks like they took a nail machine-gun to the trunk, and then pulled out all the nails. If that damage didn't kill them, maybe some pathogen, like you suggest, Sylvia, did the rest. If you mean what I think you mean when you say 'completely girdled,' then that sure looks like it, yes.

Again, bless you all for your advice and assistance!!
MzHopsing

 

[treeseer]

How far down, and how far around do you think we should pull earth up?

Down to where the first roots radiate from the trunk, all around the tree.

Very important!

I've seen little pines girdled by sapsuckers; maybe they are less nasty in Sylvia's neighborhood.

the iron thing in pin oaks is due to soil acidity. apply sulfur to lower pH.

 

[MzHopsing]

More rain today!

So there wont be any earth removal, today at least. Humidity is TERRIBLE the last several days, doing any work outside would be suicide.

I'm slightly confused on the iron vs. sulfur thing... I know we can do a ph test for the soil - what is the window for good soil ph for this oak?

Thank you all for your patience and consideration with us semi-ignorant homeowners... =)

MzHopsing

 

[S Mc]

Pin oaks like a pH of 5.0 to 6.5. All references I see state that they are intolerant of higher pH and will go chlorotic. The problem with the higher pH is that it makes the iron unavailable to the tree, hence the suggestions to add iron. However, as Treeseer pointed out, if you add a nutrient without changing the pH, it will STILL be unavailable to the tree. Therefore, the suggestion to add sulfur, as that lowers the pH. I would recommend a soil test (foliar also if you have the lab facilities). The soil test will show what is available, the foliar test will show what the tree is actually able to assimilate in its situation.

The gentlemen gave you excellent advice in clearing the excess soil from around the base. So many issues with trees are caused or exacerbated by being planted too deep. So the high water table, with a lack of drainage, possible pH issues and the tree being a bit too deep, all can add up to a stressed situation that will make your tree susceptible to problems.

Your awareness of what was a "typical" appearance of your tree and your willingness to search out answers should be commended. Do not regard yourself as ignorant but as someone who is still learning. As are we all...

Sylvia

 

[MzHopsing]

Ha!

I was just looking at my earlier question about 'how far down, and how far around the tree should I remove the earth?' All the way around the tree, treeseer replies... heheee Duh. I actually meant to ask, how far down and how far OUT from the trunk should earth be removed? How about halfway around? Or every other third? I'm just kidding, it just struck me funny there for a bit... :blob6: Really though, how far out should we go? A few feet? As far as the drip line?

Thank you, Sylvia for your fine explanation on why ph is important and how the tree takes it's nutrients, and when this is hampered. Very helpful!!! Also, thank you for the kind words regarding my 'semi-ignorant' comment. I am rather educated, but it's not in this particular field... Every day you don't learn something new, is a day wasted, I always say. My eternal gratitude to everyone's helpfulness and patience!!
MzHopsing

 

[treeseer]

how far OUT from the trunk should earth be removed?

Oh, now I get it. Just far enough to see the primary roots coming off the trunk.

 

[MzHopsing]

I think I may have everything I need now. Thank you treeseer, Sylvia, et al, for your outstanding help and support!!

I'll update at some later point to let you know how this oak progresses.

All the best to you!!
MzHopsing

 

[MzHopsing]

ph is within range!

My husband bought a ph test kit today and it shows a ph of 'slightly acid' 6.5 at a 4" depth at the oak. The longer I sit here looking at the test coloring, it suggests that it might be pushing 7.0. I know Sylvia said in her post that pin oaks like a ph range of 5 to 6.5, but I noted in the materials that came with the kit that oaks (in general, apparently) like a ph of 5.0 to 6.0.

I did find an exceptionally useful PDF from the Dept of Agriculture Forest Service online here: http://hort.ufl.edu/trees/QUEPALA.pdf This document contains everything anyone could possibly need to know about the pin oak, discusses flooding and every possible pest problem that might occur. Excellent resource!!! Along with you folks, of course...

I think we shall be looking into lowering the ph and see if there's any improvement.

 

[MzHopsing]

Thread ressurection with updated pix!

I figured since I was reporting on the trees in the yard that I might give an update on the oak that I asked about in this thread from '08. It's hard to believe that it's already been nearly three years since that flood.
:welcome:
We pulled away the soil from the oak as suggested, and kept an eye on the ph level for the remainder of that summer/fall, and the oak appears to have recovered very well. We put a layer of rock down around the base and planted some hostas around it also. It looks nice, but it's not the mulch that was suggested. I think the ol' man decided that air would better get to the roots with rock better than mulch...? We also had a large pile of rock to find places for that year, so there it goes.

Granted, it's early in the season and everything is very fresh and very green right now, but comparing the tree pic from '08 and today, I can see, somewhat, that the foliage seems to be thicker now than it was. Too, the bird damage to the trunk seems to have healed quite a bit.

Thank you guys and gals once again for all your help, then and now! :yourock:

 

[Dadatwins]

Looks like the entire area has recovered from the flooding. Tree looks good, I would probably make the mulch/rock ring a bit larger as the tree gets bigger, just to reduce some competition between turf and tree for water and nutrients. Turf has a tendency to rob the soil of everything because it is so close to the top and the tree has to often struggle to get what is left, one reason why turf and trees often do not get along so well. Rock can be useful as a mulch but only to the point that it protects the base of the tree from lawnmower/string trimmer damage. It can offer some additional oxygen pathways when first applied but over time will fill in with soil and become very compact actually cutting off the oxygen. Organic mulch simulates the natural forest environment and breaks down into the soil over time. Thanks for the update.