using a bottle jack for falling

[WesternSaw]

Pioneerguy 600

Lawrence,..check out the post by slowp in this thread,#13 I think, there is a link there that will take you to some picts of said jack.

Pioneerguy600

Hi Jerry thanks for alerting me to slowps post!
Lawrence

 

[WesternSaw]

Gologit

Silvey Tree Jacks

These guys make the best. Lots off good information.

Thanks for the link to those jacks, helps me to understand the workings of them!

Lawrence

 

[rarefish383]

I might have missed it, if someone else already mentioned it. But, here on the East Coast, we often use a "Bottle of Jack" while felling, Joe.

 

[pioneerguy600]

I might have missed it, if someone else already mentioned it. But, here on the East Coast, we often use a "Bottle of Jack" while felling, Joe.

The shorter the jack, height wise the easier it is to use for tipping. It does not take much of a lift to tip a tree over and a smaller pocket wastes less wood. The top plate should have some type of slip resistance feature, mine had rings that stood up about 1/4" higher than the top plate, these would embed into the wood and prevent slippage.

Pioneerguy600

 

[heimannm]

In the book of logging tools my son gave me for Christmas, they talk about using black power to tip trees rather than using wedges, even has a photo of what I could only describe as a black powder powered wedge.

I do remember years ago splitting some large oak rounds with our sledge hammer and splitting wedges. Some "engineer" friends of my dad came along and would bore holes into theirs and split them with black powder. They killed the battery in their truck boring the holes and we had to give them a jump so they could go home. Our splitting by hand went just as fast as their black powder method, I think they probably had a bit more fun...

Mark

 

[ChrisWeberTimberWorks]

Absolutely nothing wrong with using a bottle jack to fell a reasonable sized tree if you already are comfortable falling a tree with wedges and just need some extra lift, or maybe don't have enough wedges with you. I use them routinely for trees near buildings and other fixed structures to give me extra control and lift. Even a little two ton jack can add tip and point to some smaller diameter trees, a 6 to 8 ton is sufficient for many mid sized trees, and a 20 ton is ideal for most but the size can be an issue on some brands\models. But use wedges with it for control. Jack\slam wedge(s)\jack\slam wedges, and so on. Lift, sit, lift, sit. This way you get fine control. Also make sure to cut the smallest ******** you can. I saw an example just earlier today of someone cutting away the entire corner to create a jack "deck". Not something I would want to do, you remove the depth of your kerf for wedge placement, on smaller trees altogether. You want to use your bottle jack in correlation with your wedges, not in place of it. That is the key to not tipping it over the wrong way. That and of course keeping a strong hinge. Anyway this is what I've found in my years of cutting, and I'm 59 and the first time one of my bosses showed it to me was the 1970's so its been around a while. Poor mans jack to be sure, they do make pro ones but for residential fallers they can be overkill. Some reasonably priced tree spreaders out there if you hunt, basically a combined wedge\jack but honestly I've never had a jack kick out as some have described, but I also never use the "V" shape. I use a flat slightly inclined deck and a rectangular box, metal plates to keep from divoting the trunk and make sure I'm always Johnny-on-the-Spot with the wedges. The attached image shows a large dead ash I brought down next a historic 200 year old home. I was planning on felling it with just wedges but realized into the tree I needed a little more lift just to give me that added control so close to this home. I was shocked of course when I went to my car and realized I'd left my 6 ton at home and all I had was this little 2 ton. But it still was plenty to give me a little more tip and point than just the wedges as I had a very very narrow fall window with no room for error (trees on the right, smoke house, deck platform on the left, etc.) Just know how to fell a tree with wedges first. Before using a bottle jack. Then you'll be very happy not having to slam so many wedges. I cut down a dozen or more trees each week. Half of them I use jacks of various tonnage. Hope that helps. (Disclaimer | Drop it on your house or head its your fault not mine

 

[rarefish383]

Ever try a tag line?

 

[Skeans]

Absolutely nothing wrong with using a bottle jack to fell a reasonable sized tree if you already are comfortable falling a tree with wedges and just need some extra lift, or maybe don't have enough wedges with you. I use them routinely for trees near buildings and other fixed structures to give me extra control and lift. Even a little two ton jack can add tip and point to some smaller diameter trees, a 6 to 8 ton is sufficient for many mid sized trees, and a 20 ton is ideal for most but the size can be an issue on some brands\models. But use wedges with it for control. Jack\slam wedge(s)\jack\slam wedges, and so on. Lift, sit, lift, sit. This way you get fine control. Also make sure to cut the smallest ******** you can. I saw an example just earlier today of someone cutting away the entire corner to create a jack "deck". Not something I would want to do, you remove the depth of your kerf for wedge placement, on smaller trees altogether. You want to use your bottle jack in correlation with your wedges, not in place of it. That is the key to not tipping it over the wrong way. That and of course keeping a strong hinge. Anyway this is what I've found in my years of cutting, and I'm 59 and the first time one of my bosses showed it to me was the 1970's so its been around a while. Poor mans jack to be sure, they do make pro ones but for residential fallers they can be overkill. Some reasonably priced tree spreaders out there if you hunt, basically a combined wedge\jack but honestly I've never had a jack kick out as some have described, but I also never use the "V" shape. I use a flat slightly inclined deck and a rectangular box, metal plates to keep from divoting the trunk and make sure I'm always Johnny-on-the-Spot with the wedges. The attached image shows a large dead ash I brought down next a historic 200 year old home. I was planning on felling it with just wedges but realized into the tree I needed a little more lift just to give me that added control so close to this home. I was shocked of course when I went to my car and realized I'd left my 6 ton at home and all I had was this little 2 ton. But it still was plenty to give me a little more tip and point than just the wedges as I had a very very narrow fall window with no room for error (trees on the right, smoke house, deck platform on the left, etc.) Just know how to fell a tree with wedges first. Before using a bottle jack. Then you'll be very happy not having to slam so many wedges. I cut down a dozen or more trees each week. Half of them I use jacks of various tonnage. Hope that helps. (Disclaimer | Drop it on your house or head its your fault not mine

Take a look at where you have the jack placed it’s pretty close to the hinge on the corner that’s a damn good way to pop on off the hinge. Smallest jack I would even consider is 45 ton safety factor is a huge thing a small gust of wind on a bottle jack will pop the seals even with wedges in the back cut.

To the jack seats there’s a reason you see the large seats with the timber jacks one is they have the larger platforms and the second is they can add multiple rams if needed. Something like the old Silvey tree savers were a back pack pump with two rams equaling 125 tons with safety features built in like check valves to keep them from bleeding down if you lost a line.


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[ChrisWeberTimberWorks]

The jack in this image was placed fine, it had good footing and the tree was properly controlled throughout the fall. The top plate is not visible in the image because it went over with the tree. The image you are showing is a much larger taller heavier tree, forestry type fell not a residential fell. These trees here in Virginia are no where near in the neighborhood where a 45 ton would be necessary. This tree was felled with a 2 ton without issue, although normally I'd not use the 2 ton for anything other than small trees. It just happened to be all I had with me. And the tonnage I use usually depends on amount of lift I am going for, whether just extra tip and point or whether I'm trying to overcome backlean. Normally 6 to 12 ton is sufficient for most residential trees I would take down, and the largest I carry is a 20 ton and I've never had to use it yet. I've been felling trees using this method for decades, have not had a jack kick out yet.

 

[ChrisWeberTimberWorks]

BTW, looking at the jack placement in your image, I can say I've seen it split the wood when placed that close to the edge. The pressure is often too much without a good solid base. The trick I've found is not to rely on the jack but the wedges and use the jack just to provide the extra control.

 

[Skeans]

BTW, looking at the jack placement in your image, I can say I've seen it split the wood when placed that close to the edge. The pressure is often too much without a good solid base. The trick I've found is not to rely on the jack but the wedges and use the jack just to provide the extra control.

That one was placed there as a quick insurance policy with a property line to the left and to the rear of the picture. Doing Doug fir I’ve never seen one split with a jack placed like that it’s a completely different animal, a normal seat I’ll take a larger either corner or the whole back out. When something like the tree savers come out it’s on a heavy back leaner down in a hole somewhere you can’t put the drum line it that’s the stuff I was broke in doing by the old growth fallers and if you’re not careful or know what you’re doing you’ll pop one straight up vs in the correct direction.


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[ChrisWeberTimberWorks]

That one was placed there as a quick insurance policy with a property line to the left and to the rear of the picture. Doing Doug fir I’ve never seen one split with a jack placed like that it’s a completely different animal, a normal seat I’ll take a larger either corner or the whole back out. When something like the tree savers come out it’s on a heavy back leaner down in a hole somewhere you can’t put the drum line it that’s the stuff I was broke in doing by the old growth fallers and if you’re not careful or know what you’re doing you’ll pop one straight up vs in the correct direction.


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I too, father was a Dutch Carpenter, did felling old world. We used ax and 2 man saw, grew up on a Swing Dutchman, humbolt, etc. I do various cuts, two, three step falls. I'll be 60 next year, haven't lost one in the last half century so comfortable with my placements. Residential felling is a different beas

 

[EchoRomeoCharlie]

I've seen this done in video's and read of it in books, however, I never thought it would be something I needed to do around here.

I can't imagine a tree in my area that would be safe to fell with a bottle jack that couldn't have been felled with wedges. We just don't have tree's that big round here. Even the monster burr oaks and silver maples that can get upwards of 6 foot diameter I've tipped over easily with wedges or a pull line.

Other than to do it just so I could say I did it, I don't see much of a reason to use a regular bottle jack to tip a tree.

 

[ChrisWeberTimberWorks]

I've seen this done in video's and read of it in books, however, I never thought it would be something I needed to do around here.

I can't imagine a tree in my area that would be safe to fell with a bottle jack that couldn't have been felled with wedges. We just don't have tree's that big round here. Even the monster burr oaks and silver maples that can get upwards of 6 foot diameter I've tipped over easily with wedges or a pull line.

Other than to do it just so I could say I did it, I don't see much of a reason to use a regular bottle jack to tip a tree.

Lots of reasons. Like overcoming a hard backlean, or working right next to an object like trying to fell a tree that is right next to a fence (how are you going to swing your ax next to a fence or building?) . If you did residential felling for a living, you'd see the reason.

 

[EchoRomeoCharlie]

Lots of reasons. Like overcoming a hard backlean, or working right next to an object like trying to fell a tree that is right next to a fence (how are you going to swing your ax next to a fence or building?) . If you did residential felling for a living, you'd see the reason.

I've dumped hundreds of trees in residential settings. I don't do it for a living though.

Haven't had a tree yet I couldn't pull over with a 200 foot of 5/8" rope, a couple of arborist blocks and either a truck, winch, come along, or a couple guys pulling on it.

I'm not saying a jack is not a valid approach to certain situations, it is. I'm suggesting that buying a bottle jack from harbor freight and using it to tip trees over is most likely not the most efficient way to handle the situation 99.9% of the time. Cutting a good spot for the jack isn't trivial. Running a bottle jack up to full extension or close takes a while, especially when backing it up with wedges every few pumps. Also, it seems to me, if I don't have room to swing an axe, I can't see having enough room to get a saw in there to cut an opening big enough for the jack.

Setting a line in a tree is pretty quick(probably about the same time as cutting the spot for the jack) and with all that leverage, over coming back lean is pretty easy. I've wedged trees up against fences/houses/retaining walls/pools/play sets/etc...you don't have to drive wedges directly into the rear of the back cut. You can drive them in from the side. Works just fine. Maybe some day I'll run into a tree that needs one.

Again, I'm not saying it shouldn't ever be done...just that it's not this simple worry free way of tipping trees over.


EDIT: Seeing your photo now...That tree could have easily been wedged...plenty of room to set and drive a wedge there from the side of the picture and the other side. Swinging an axe from the weak side is humbling when ur buddies are watching lol

 

[EchoRomeoCharlie]

Pulling a tree over with a rope is in most cases Harry Homeowner nonsense, and the worst way to take down a tree and shows a complete lack of proper felling unless there is absolutely no other way to control the direction of a particular tree which in 99 percent of the cases is not the case. And given I've been doing it for over half a century, and given I cut several hundred trees per year I can say its easy and you don't know what you're talking about. You couldn't swing an ax to drive wedges next to that fence without hitting the fence with your ax, there is no room to swing. This is nonsense. And a waste of my time.

So why are you responding?

I'm not using the rope to control the direction. I'm using it to overcome back lean(or control the butt so it doesn't kick over and destroy a something, but that's not a pull line). Same as you're doing with the hydraulic pump.

I've sent tree's closer to fences than that with wedge...like less than a bar width close to the fence. Maybe that particular tree had too much back lean for a less than perfect wedge placement. I wasn't there, I don't know. I'll take your word that the only option to fell that tree was the high speed low drag professional use only labeled bottle jack.

Sorry I'm too homeowner. Ropes been getting me paid no problem. By the time I'm set and ready to cut, my guy has a rope set. Face cut, back cut, pull, on to the next one. 90%+ of my work lately has been me climbing though...I get very few tree's that can be dumped whole around here.

Again, you do you. Not saying you're wrong, but if the worst thing you can say about a pull line is that it's 'too homeowner' I'll laugh and keep using it. I don't let my bravado get in the way of safe tree felling.

If I had a tree that I legitimately thought needed to be jacked, I would buy a quality tree jack and use it. I just haven't ever run into the situation.

 

[Ted Jenkins]

I often use two bottle jacks which helps me more accurately direct a tree. I have one fifty ton, but often use two eight ton along with a tag line. Have not caused any damage with that method. Thanks