Preseason opener.

rwoods · Sep 22, 2012

Firewood season doesn't officially begin until next month, but I took two new recruits out today for a little hands on exercise. It is hard to get a good perspective on the size of the tree but the stump end is about 15 feet in the air. They cut the perimeter non-supporting limbs and I did the little high work that got done this morning. Saws used were a 036Pro and a 362. I did some minimal cutting with a PM800. The trunk will be fun and I might just bring out a SP125C for some fun. Ron

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rwoods · Sep 22, 2012

Gologit encouraged me to post some of my ugly stumps - so here goes. Not exactly what he had in mind but it is my stump now. It is the other end of the tree we were trimming. Ron

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haveawoody · Sep 22, 2012

rwoods,

Well that thing rates right up there with one of the worst stumps I've ever seen.
Not sure how i would tackle it, looks like a few accidents waiting to happen pretty much whatever you do.
Even taking weight away from the main tree it might decide to stand back up or snap and fly things at anytime.

I think for me it would be bobcat rental to pull the tree off the stump.
Or drop a second tree on it to split it from the stump.

zogger · Sep 22, 2012

That's a nice whopper! You can milk a lotta wood just outta those branches. And have un once down to the splinters! That looks to take some creative cutting to do it safely.

rwoods · Sep 22, 2012

haveawoody said:
rwoods,

Well that thing rates right up there with one of the worst stumps I've ever seen.
Not sure how i would tackle it, looks like a few accidents waiting to happen pretty much whatever you do.
Even taking weight away from the main tree it might decide to stand back up or snap and fly things at anytime.

I think for me it would be bobcat rental to pull the tree off the stump.
Or drop a second tree on it to split it from the stump.

This one will take a lot of thought. I don't believe they make four bobcats put together that would be big enough to pull it off the stump - the holding wood is over 4 feet across. With all the splintering, I am not too keen on climbing up and thinning the break. I do plan to whittle on the downed stem (short logs down to firewood size lengths) and do lots of thinking. If I don't figure a safe way, I will let the tree owner know it is his problem - it is right at the back edge of a high end neighborhood and it will attract kids to climb it if it is left standing. A large trackhoe might could rip it down from the stump if the holding wood was thinned. I know for sure that I am not going to attempt to fall the stub with the broken stem attached. Ron

rwoods · Sep 22, 2012

zogger said:
That's a nice whopper! You can milk a lotta wood just outta those branches. And have un once down to the splinters! That looks to take some creative cutting to do it safely.

Thanks. It just might get left as it is huge. I have cut smaller trees in similar situations by falling the stump to the side. This requires some equipment pulling the tree (broken stem and all) in the direction you want it to fall. The largest I have every done this way was during our tornato work. It was a 2 to 2 1/2 foot oak on a favorable slope. We hooked it high to a deuce and a half sitting on a paved road; truck weighed between 16,000 to 17,000# as we had a ton or so of gravel in the back for better traction. I cut it just like I would if it had been whole with a piece of equipment pulling on it. Everything clicked on that one. But a deuce and a half could do chin-ups on this tree without bringing it down. The weight of the broken stem might actually exceed the weight of the truck and if anchored the cable capacity. In other words, this tree is going to fall in whatever direction gravity wants it to fall. There is no way I am going to attempt to fall this tree with the broken stem attached. Nor am I going to get in any hurry as I can just leave it. Ron

wagz · Sep 22, 2012

why can't you just start at the very top of the tree and whittle it down to the stump? basically cutting off small logs as you work your way back towards the break...

haveawoody · Sep 22, 2012

rwoods,

Hard to tell how much of the base was still connected to the rest from the picture.

For sure last thing i would do is be on top of that thing working, the piece at the top and giant cracks in the tree beyond the stump are nasty looking let alone the stump that looks like it was dynamited LOL

What i would do is find where the tree top was first touching the ground, then about 5 ft before that do a bottom cut slowly up at that point allowing the main weight to get to the ground slowly.
Keeps you well away from the danger zone and weird cracking noises on that cut are going to happen well before a disaster.
I sure would be watching everything even doing that.

Could be just an illusion that the top and bottom are well connected, when you release the weight the rest might decide to show you that with a drop and roll.

If that all goes well finish the separation cut, remove everything below your cut.
Then i bet you could rope the rest to something else and winch or truck tug it into a better orientation.
Even a bit on an angle will make life easy to separate it from the stump.

After looking at the stump conection again I bet when you release the main tree weight the stump drops the the remaining also. Be careful!
Atleast cutting up if it happens you will still have some wood trying to hold each other together.

Fred Wright · Sep 22, 2012

The tree on the right, first photo is similar to a large maple in our woodlot that was pushed over during Irene last year. Yours is larger but the situation is the same.

The maple was partially hollowed at the base (darn carpenter ants) and had split about four feet up. That thing scared me, I left the main stem set for a week or so. Cleaned up the limbs and springpoles it fell on first. Then on to the top of the maple. Got it whittled down to the main trunk. Very carefully, I might add.

Started working the trunk, bucking toward the break. I was watching for springback tension but it didn't happen. Bucked it all the way down to the break and made a bunch of kindling out of it. Wasn't funny at the time... but thinking back, I could've parked the dump cart under it and dropped the rounds into the cart while bucking.

There could be residual tension at that stump. Them things worry me. Stay safe out there, my compadre.

haveawoody · Sep 22, 2012

Fred Wright,

Yeppers it's a scarey looking thing.
Even thinning down the bottom lots of that part is above ground and if you release the weight on a limb it could all drop or drop and roll.

I would remove everything not touching the ground, then one at a time with caution up cut each limb to try and let whatever happens happen slow.
Bet my pole saw would see lots of action on this tree

Naked Arborist · Sep 22, 2012

No rush so leave the thing all in one piece. Support the tree with an A-frame as close to the break off as possible. Chain it all together at the beams (trees if you don't have beams), under, around and to the A-frame. It should not go anywhere when picked apart. You could use any heavy truck to pull the chains tight from the opposite side. Another words pull the chains under and around the tree to lock up the post nice and tight. If you leave all the limbs attached it should not roll around. It should not spring back to much if you get it supported under the main stem. If you get rid of all the splinters on it that will make it much safer to deal with when cutting away the break point. After that it is just a matter of slowly picking away at the standing trunk and let the tree roll off to one side as you release it from the trucks. Sounds hard but it' not if you draw up a diagram. Think of giant chopsticks all chained up with the tag ends of the chains going out to the trucks to be tensioned up.

rwoods · Sep 22, 2012

wagz said:
why can't you just start at the very top of the tree and whittle it down to the stump? basically cutting off small logs as you work your way back towards the break...

That is a fair description of my usual approach. But these pictures are deceiving as this tree is a good 3' in diameter at the first limb and it has at another 30' or so before you get to the 15' high break. Right now the stem at the first limb is 7 to 8 feet off the ground. The stem itself has too much mass for me to whittle the tree down to the stem without having a plan in place to finish the job. Ron

Naked Arborist said:
No rush so leave the thing all in one piece. Support the tree with an A-frame as close to the break off as possible. Chain it all together at the beams (trees if you don't have beams), under, around and to the A-frame. It should not go anywhere when picked apart. You could use any heavy truck to pull the chains tight from the opposite side. Another words pull the chains under and around the tree to lock up the post nice and tight. If you leave all the limbs attached it should not roll around. It should not spring back to much if you get it supported under the main stem. If you get rid of all the splinters on it that will make it much safer to deal with when cutting away the break point. After that it is just a matter of slowly picking away at the standing trunk and let the tree roll off to one side as you release it from the trucks. Sounds hard but it' not if you draw up a diagram. Think of giant chopsticks all chained up with the tag ends of the chains going out to the trucks to be tensioned up.

Thanks, I'm in no hurry and there is plenty of other firewood around here. If a simpler and safe idea doesn't occur to me then I'm going to tell the landowner to hire a pro who has the equipment, skill and experience to take it down. In the meantime I won't intentional do anything that will make it more unstable. I am just lighten the overhead load and leaving the numerous supporting branches in place. Ron

terryknight · Sep 24, 2012

that is a biggun.

did it twist as it fell?

Naked Arborist · Sep 24, 2012

The real easy fix is TNT and a long fuse. You get my point?
C-4 is another option. The local National Guard might be interested in some practice with shape charges.
The fastest, safest and cheapest way is to get a free demo job.
Bet the local fire company would be game for "stand by". It makes for a nice training day :msp_thumbup:
Even the locals and Mr. Softy would turn out for that.

Put a guy next to the stump and take another pic. This will give others something to relate that monster to. Then they will not think it is something to be "whittled down".

rwoods · Sep 24, 2012

terryknight said:
that is a biggun.

did it twist as it fell?

From viewing the stub, it appears that the wind twisted the heck out of it before finally blowing it over but it looks to have fallen with just a little twist (look at the "ugly stump" picture and you can see that the attached splinter is not completely aligned with the place it was torn). Ron

rwoods · Sep 24, 2012

Naked Arborist said:
The real easy fix is TNT and a long fuse. You get my point?
C-4 is another option. The local National Guard might be interested in some practice with shape charges.
The fastest, safest and cheapest way is to get a free demo job.
Bet the local fire company would be game for "stand by". It makes for a nice training day :msp_thumbup:
Even the locals and Mr. Softy would turn out for that.

Put a guy next to the stump and take another pic. This will give others something to relate that monster to. Then they will not think it is something to be "whittled down".

I have had a few standing dead white pines and a Hemlock that I wanted to blast down. The old Hemlock finally fell over. I am waiting on the pines to do the same. Too many overhead limbs for me to get under.

As you noted, I did a poor job on the pictures. The size is not apparent without a good reference point. I didn't measure it but the stub is at least 15' high. We are going to get plenty of wood out of the safe stuff. Ron

terryknight · Sep 24, 2012

rwoods said:
From viewing the stub, it appears that the wind twisted the heck out of it before finally blowing it over but it looks to have fallen with just a little twist (look at the "ugly stump" picture and you can see that the attached splinter is not completely aligned with the place it was torn). Ron

that picture is why i was asking. when they twist they put lots of strange stresses in the tree i learned that the hard way pinching several bars (you probably knew that though).

rwoods · Sep 29, 2012

Second Round

Rain and other obligations limited me to just an hour and a half of cutting today. Due to miscommunication, I ending up cutting solo but I got a little bit done despite having to cut out a pinched saw twice. The tree is now down to five legs. It remains to be seen how short the big stem will need to be before it simply hangs. So far the stem has been very stable; the loads on the limbs are a little tricky, however.

I forgot the camera, but I took some shots later during a lull in the rain.

The tree is over 3' in diameter at the first limb not counting the flare (the first limb is the small looking stub at the top of the picture - the stub is actually around a foot in diameter). The tree is 11' above the ground at this point. I didn't step it off from there to the break at the stub but it looks to be 30' or so. I can see where some caulked boots would be very handy.

Longer view:

The only vertical leg (driven in the ground):

Tangled mess at next branch juncture. Flare is 4'+.

Shot of remaining 5 legs (the vertical leg is the smallest by far):

Ron
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rwoods · Sep 29, 2012

More Pictures

Close up of second leg:

Other views:

Plenty of wood on the ground:

Ron

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haveawoody · Sep 29, 2012

rwoods,

Looks like it's coming along nicely.
Going to get quite the quantity of firewood from that beast.
Pretty soon though you will be into the weight shifting cuts so be careful on them.
Bet it drops off the stump at some point so every cut i made now i would expect that to happen or atleast keep it in mind as a possible.

Preseason opener.

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