Trajectile Dysfunction

[HuskStihl]

I am humbly coming to you guys (and Slowp) for some help and advice. I am neither a logger nor a forester, and I realize I contribute nothing to the logging forum (it sure is fun, though), but you guys know your ####, and I need some help. I generally cut down (to call what I do "falling" would be an insult to fallers!) about 20-30 sizeable trees a year which we are losing to the drougt and the bark beetles. Usually, most have fallen more or less where I wanted, but last year I hit two seperate fence lines, and took a big limb off a really nice live oak with "unenforced errors." During my "off season" last fall and winter, I stumbled on Arborist site, watched lots of videos and read Douglas Dent's falling book once I realized what I had learned from my father about falling 30 years ago was not exactly textbook.
This afternoon I cut down my first tree of the season, and made a video of what I did with the intent of asking y'all for help. The pine had a pretty good lean right towards a fence line, but the top looked like it would pull it the other way.
[video=youtube;r_NfLicsNyo]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r_NfLicsNyo[/video]

I will admit I was secretly hoping that it would be a perfect execution, and I'd look all cool, and RandyMac would not want to set me on fire, but amateur is as amateur does. Mistakes I see right off the bat, way too deep a face. It was leaning pretty good, and I didn't want it to barberchair, so I wanted a decent face, but I just overshot with bad aim. When it started to go, it did not do so gently, and I ran away like a 6 year old girl from a spider. Hopefully my muffler mod hid my high-pitched squealing while I ran.

I am asking you guys to take a look at what I did and offer me advice on my technique and thinking, based on what you see to make me a better/safer tree cutter-downer. I know my limitations, and never attempt to cut down something that could potentially hit a house/barn etc. I have been married for 15 years and consequently can withstand a veritable mountain of criticism, constructive and otherwise, so fire away. Thanks in advance for your time, which I realize could be better spent, and Bob, I promise to never compare you to Wilford Brimley ever again.
Jon

 

[ropensaddle]

I am humbly coming to you guys (and Slowp) for some help and advice. I am neither a logger nor a forester, and I realize I contribute nothing to the logging forum (it sure is fun, though), but you guys know your ####, and I need some help. I generally cut down (to call what I do "falling" would be an insult to fallers!) about 20-30 sizeable trees a year which we are losing to the drougt and the bark beetles. Usually, most have fallen more or less where I wanted, but last year I hit two seperate fence lines, and took a big limb off a really nice live oak with "unenforced errors." During my "off season" last fall and winter, I stumbled on Arborist site, watched lots of videos and read Douglas Dent's falling book once I realized what I had learned from my father about falling 30 years ago was not exactly textbook.
This afternoon I cut down my first tree of the season, and made a video of what I did with the intent of asking y'all for help. The pine had a pretty good lean right towards a fence line, but the top looked like it would pull it the other way.
[video=youtube;r_NfLicsNyo]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r_NfLicsNyo[/video]

I will admit I was secretly hoping that it would be a perfect execution, and I'd look all cool, and RandyMac would not want to set me on fire, but amateur is as amateur does. Mistakes I see right off the bat, way too deep a face. It was leaning pretty good, and I didn't want it to barberchair, so I wanted a decent face, but I just overshot with bad aim. When it started to go, it did not do so gently, and I ran away like a 6 year old girl from a spider. Hopefully my muffler mod hid my high-pitched squealing while I ran.

I am asking you guys to take a look at what I did and offer me advice on my technique and thinking, based on what you see to make me a better/safer tree cutter-downer. I know my limitations, and never attempt to cut down something that could potentially hit a house/barn etc. I have been married for 15 years and consequently can withstand a veritable mountain of criticism, constructive and otherwise, so fire away. Thanks in advance for your time, which I realize could be better spent, and Bob, I promise to never compare you to Wilford Brimley ever again.
Jon

Not randy man but saw looked dull and yes way too deep also back away from stump without turning your back to the tree. If your unsure a rope or cable tensioned in the direction you want it to go can save even the best fallers grief. I know it's not as cool to fell it with pull line but it can save fixing a fence.

 

[ropensaddle]

I usually stand at base of tree and can tell where it wants to go some use plumb bobs me I just read the top and compression wood and tension wood. Those curved ones can fool ya easy but usually want to follow the top not always though!

 

[ropensaddle]

If you had not notched it so deep you could of backed up your cut with a wedge!

 

[madhatte]

Couple things I see. BEFORE ANYTHING -- look up, man! That's where the danger is!

First thing is that, oddly enough, it was your over-deep face cut that put the stem where your intended lay was, rather than the "step Dutchman". You cut it far enough back that it was past its center-of-gravity and unable to follow its natural lean. I have lost a couple that way due to fire damage and had to book it when the buttresses collapsed. This is not criticism of technique but rather of theory -- you did one of several exact right things, but on accident. Last wekend I put down a few beetle-killed fir for a friend and made the exact opposite mistake -- I knew it was leaning opposite my intended lay, so I put my back cut in first, snugged up the wedges, and then put in the face cut. Problem was that I ran out of wedge lift before I had pushed it past the center-of-gravity -- it hung there balanced, no room for another wedge, until we bumped it with a tractor. Long/short: understand what the face is for, use accordingly, adjust as necessary.

Second: tricky cuts come after solid fundamentals. Don't fret pounding wedges. You'll get tired, sure, but you'll learn what works and what doesn't. You can lift almost anything with wedges... at the expense of your back and shoulders. Do that first.

Third: sharpen that damn chain! You want to spend as little time under moving wood as possible, and a sharp chain is the easiest way to do that.

Fourth: your steps were into the flat part of the face. They won't compress there. If you want to put them on the bottom, use a Humboldt. Otherwise, put them on the top. If they can't compress, the stem won't use them to shift its weight.

Finally: good on you reading up, listening, participating, and asking for input. Yer one of us.

 

[ropensaddle]

Couple things I see. BEFORE ANYTHING -- look up, man! That's where the danger is!

First thing is that, oddly enough, it was your over-deep face cut that put the stem where your intended lay was, rather than the "step Dutchman". You cut it far enough back that it was past its center-of-gravity and unable to follow its natural lean. I have lost a couple that way due to fire damage and had to book it when the buttresses collapsed. This is not criticism of technique but rather of theory -- you did one of several exact right things, but on accident. Last wekend I put down a few beetle-killed fir for a friend and made the exact opposite mistake -- I knew it was leaning opposite my intended lay, so I put my back cut in first, snugged up the wedges, and then put in the face cut. Problem was that I ran out of wedge lift before I had pushed it past the center-of-gravity -- it hung there balanced, no room for another wedge, until we bumped it with a tractor. Long/short: understand what the face is for, use accordingly, adjust as necessary.

Second: tricky cuts come after solid fundamentals. Don't fret pounding wedges. You'll get tired, sure, but you'll learn what works and what doesn't. You can lift almost anything with wedges... at the expense of your back and shoulders. Do that first.

Third: sharpen that damn chain! You want to spend as little time under moving wood as possible, and a sharp chain is the easiest way to do that.

Fourth: your steps were into the flat part of the face. They won't compress there. If you want to put them on the bottom, use a Humboldt. Otherwise, put them on the top. If they can't compress, the stem won't use them to shift its weight.

Finally: good on you reading up, listening, participating, and asking for input. Yer one of us.

Mad I get the deep notch helping bring it where it landed but it can also chair going too deep if too much force is against you ever see one go back before the back cut is made by cutting too deep ?

 

[madhatte]

Mad I get the deep notch helping bring it where it landed but it can also chair going too deep if too much force is against you ever see one go back before the back cut is made by cutting too deep ?

General rule: yes. In this case, the deep face is why it fell as planned. The wood behind the hinge was strong enough, and the weight back enough, that it didn't chair. This particular tree was an exception rather than a rule. I would not have planned it like this but it worked and we can watch and see that these are the reasons why.

 

[ropensaddle]

General rule: yes. In this case, the deep face is why it fell as planned. The wood behind the hinge was strong enough, and the weight back enough, that it didn't chair. This particular tree was an exception rather than a rule. I would not have planned it like this but it worked and we can watch and see that these are the reasons why.

yeah I know it helped it along top weight may have a bit too. I think likely it would of worked with less and a wedge as well but I agree with you. I also meant to say back away and look up lol

 

[madhatte]

All of the above but mostly

look up

I probably sound like I'm talking in circles but I truly believe that watching the top is important. It shows movement when the tree is going to come down, it's where (most of) the danger comes from, and it's sort of inherently hard to remember to pay attention to when you have a big ol' saw in your hands trying to do whatever it wants to. Finesse tricks come after the basic stuff has become automatic. Watch the pros watching the top -- those guys don't waste energy. If it wasn't important, they'd find another way to do it. Even a loose wedge used as a bobber doesn't substitute for good situational awareness -- it just offers one more thing to indicate movement.

 

[RandyMac]

Can I set you on fire?

 

[HuskStihl]

Not randy man but saw looked dull and yes way too deep also back away from stump without turning your back to the tree. If your unsure a rope or cable tensioned in the direction you want it to go can save even the best fallers grief. I know it's not as cool to fell it with pull line but it can save fixing a fence.

Couple things I see. BEFORE ANYTHING -- look up, man! That's where the danger is!

First thing is that, oddly enough, it was your over-deep face cut that put the stem where your intended lay was, rather than the "step Dutchman". You cut it far enough back that it was past its center-of-gravity and unable to follow its natural lean. I have lost a couple that way due to fire damage and had to book it when the buttresses collapsed. This is not criticism of technique but rather of theory -- you did one of several exact right things, but on accident. Last wekend I put down a few beetle-killed fir for a friend and made the exact opposite mistake -- I knew it was leaning opposite my intended lay, so I put my back cut in first, snugged up the wedges, and then put in the face cut. Problem was that I ran out of wedge lift before I had pushed it past the center-of-gravity -- it hung there balanced, no room for another wedge, until we bumped it with a tractor. Long/short: understand what the face is for, use accordingly, adjust as necessary.

Second: tricky cuts come after solid fundamentals. Don't fret pounding wedges. You'll get tired, sure, but you'll learn what works and what doesn't. You can lift almost anything with wedges... at the expense of your back and shoulders. Do that first.

Third: sharpen that damn chain! You want to spend as little time under moving wood as possible, and a sharp chain is the easiest way to do that.

Fourth: your steps were into the flat part of the face. They won't compress there. If you want to put them on the bottom, use a Humboldt. Otherwise, put them on the top. If they can't compress, the stem won't use them to shift its weight.

Finally: good on you reading up, listening, participating, and asking for input. Yer one of us.

The first thing is you are man enough to admit your mistakes and see what you did wrong and that is a great asset and how you'll learn. Being honest is an important thing.


I can't add anything to what the guys have said already apart from if your having issues with the depth of face cut then mark it out ie depth etc it will giv you a visual point of reference. Maybe you could try putting the top cut in first as it may be easier to judge your depth then do the undercut (only a suggestion) You could have started the back cut on the bad side and wedged it there before walking the saw round (although this wouldn't have been possible here due to the depth of face). Personally with the open face I back it up a bit higher but that just me. Look up it is important to watch the crown it'll give ya the first sign of movement and never turn your back.


As said there are alot of finesse cuts and things that can be used but get the basics down first


You did fine and I'd fall with ya time patience and listening asking and watching you'll get there and there no doubt of that.


Wear chaps tho buddy please I cringe when I see folks cutting without them.


Hope I not offended I'm sure the other top guys on here will help ya loads and you seem to actually want to listen. We all make mistakes

Thank you guys very much, this is all great advice. You guys have no idea how badly I wanted the tree to start falling, and settle to the ground gently, with me calmly backing away with my saw off looking cool. The tree was triangularly shaped at the base with the face in the point and the backcut on the opposite side which probably made it all happen faster. When I started the back cut I figured I would have several more inches of wood to cut through before it started moving. When it did, I tried to hit the left side holding wood hard to help it steer to the right. My logical brain said this will not barberchair, but when that pop came, and it was as loud as a
.223, my fight/flight brain was sure the whole thing was splitting, and I ran screaming and crying. Great advice on the top cut first to better judge depth, that alone will help alot.

The chain wasn't as bad as it looked, and here's where I need more help. When I bucked that up, it moves through the wood with no problems, but when I make face/back cuts the 42" bar bends, and leaves me with a subtle "frown" looking cut that constantly seems to bind the chain forcing me to rock it back and forth to hit any wood. Any tips for that, or am I just talking crazy?
Thanks again, and Templar, you're awesome. I take zero offense in being told how to do things better, especially when I am asking you experienced fallers how to do it better. Please don't tell Philbert I wasn't wearing chaps, I don't think I could take him being disappointed in me.

 

[HuskStihl]

Can I set you on fire?

I would be honored!

 

[northmanlogging]

Ya did fine, undercut was a bit ambitious but in this case it probably saved yer neck.

Stop and look, its ok to restart a cut in a different direction, as long as you have not gone to far. Makes for ugly stumps, but I'd rather have an ugly stump then an ugly house/fence line, or broken up wood

When I make a dutchmen block I stuff it into the face cut, I don't just let it hang out, figure its better to make it start working as soon as the tree starts to move, and not delay the effect, just my opinion. (this bit was hard to say without sounding snooty... so posh...:msp_unsure D Dent mentioned using rocks as dutchmen? I'm a think'n hacking a bit of the face cut is by far safer... saws don't like to cut rocks,:msp_ohmy:

And LOOK UP!!!

As far as the bar is concerned, are ya running .404? if not that will help a little bit, or ditch that orygone wiggle stick and get a stihl bar, they seem to be a lot stiffer... you could also try running the chain just a touch looser, keeps it from binding up so bad, down side is you will tend to throw chains more often.

and ditch that sledge hammer and get a 3-4 pound axe with a stubby handle, worst case you can always chop your saw free if it sets back hard... or chop out those big ugly face chunks.

 

[mdavlee]

Most 42" bars are flimsy. Maybe back down to a 33-36" bar for more control over the bar. I know it's hindsight but you can always make the face deeper if you need to. It's real hard to make it not so deep as in this case. Looking up and not watching the saw is something that is odd at first. The saw is going to do what you're telling it to do with your hands.

 

[HuskStihl]

Ya did fine, undercut was a bit ambitious but in this case it probably saved yer neck.

Stop and look, its ok to restart a cut in a different direction, as long as you have not gone to far. Makes for ugly stumps, but I'd rather have an ugly stump then an ugly house/fence line, or broken up wood

When I make a dutchmen block I stuff it into the face cut, I don't just let it hang out, figure its better to make it start working as soon as the tree starts to move, and not delay the effect, just my opinion. (this bit was hard to say without sounding snooty... so posh...:msp_unsure D Dent mentioned using rocks as dutchmen? I'm a think'n hacking a bit of the face cut is by far safer... saws don't like to cut rocks,:msp_ohmy:

And LOOK UP!!!

As far as the bar is concerned, are ya running .404? if not that will help a little bit, or ditch that orygone wiggle stick and get a stihl bar, they seem to be a lot stiffer... you could also try running the chain just a touch looser, keeps it from binding up so bad, down side is you will tend to throw chains more often.

and ditch that sledge hammer and get a 3-4 pound axe with a stubby handle, worst case you can always chop your saw free if it sets back hard... or chop out those big ugly face chunks.

Most 42" bars are flimsy. Maybe back down to a 33-36" bar for more control over the bar. I know it's hindsight but you can always make the face deeper if you need to. It's real hard to make it not so deep as in this case. Looking up and not watching the saw is something that is odd at first. The saw is going to do what you're telling it to do with your hands.

I agree with you there buddy chains don't like rocks and cutting a block outta the face slab is what I do I'd be real upset if I hit a rock lol........seriously sticking the block hard up so it starts working quicker is sound advice as I have seen the block move when further out. Also (imo) I feel that if your gonna do that then why would you want the action it gives to be delayed .....maybe my brain don't work that fast to judge delayed reaction.


I never carry a sledge I always carry an ax it more useful and we all had to cut out pinched saws lol


falling isn't a race and I so agree that there is no rule that says ya can't pause and take stock. I also meant to say don't chase the face cut if it not going to meet rather chunk out and clean it up as imo it does save going to deep.

Thanks for the help Northman. If you look at the ground at the start of the video, the sledge will be explained! I broke my axe wedging the previous tree, and walk all the way back to the shed to get a sledge.

I did read about the rock, and saw a video of a man using one, but there are no rocks in southeast texas, so I busted off a piece of the face. I wasn't sure whether to snug it up or leave it a few inches away, so thanks for setting me straight on this.

Thanks mdavlee, I always enjoy your insight on things. I really like doing everything from one side of the tree. This tree turned out to be too big even for the 42" to reach all the way across, so I would have been better served with my 28"

Do you guys think this freshly dead pine with a decent but not severe lean would have barberchaired with the 40% face I was intending? I can bore OK if I take my time at the start, but I didn't think it was needed here. Obviously when you make a massive facecut (by accident) there is no room for boring, but if I face the next one like this properly, would you recommend boring out some of the holding wood before beginning the back cut?

Madhatte: Thanks for all the time you took with this. I'm forced to admit what you are saying is a little over my head. From a thinking/planning standpoint, how would you have approached this tree to get it to do what you want, safely, and not by accident?

You guys are great, thanks again for your advice

 

[northmanlogging]

I figure if the block action is delayed it may not work at all, objects in motion tend to stay in motion...

I'm still playing with different swing techniques, trying to find the one that works the best... not sure there really is one, but I do like the block method, works too good sometimes:msp_scared:

Only heard of the siswheel after I joined this site, as well as the soft dutch.

I tried using the siswheel with a kerf dutch last saturday on a center rotted maple, unknown to me it was being taped so of course it didn't work... bastard broke out as I was reaching for a wedge...still had 6-7" of wood on a 14" tree. still went more or less where I wanted it (not on a house:msp_biggrin I would have posted it on here but the camera timed out just before I made the back cut... so all you would get to see is my large ass 6' up a funky stump playing with my saw...

 

[northmanlogging]

Thanks mdavlee, I always enjoy your insight on things. I really like doing everything from one side of the tree. This tree turned out to be too big even for the 42" to reach all the way across, so I would have been better served with my 28"

Do you guys think this freshly dead pine with a decent but not severe lean would have barberchaired with the 40% face I was intending? I can bore OK if I take my time at the start, but I didn't think it was needed here. Obviously when you make a massive facecut (by accident) there is no room for boring, but if I face the next one like this properly, would you recommend boring out some of the holding wood before beginning the back cut?

It might have... you really never know, I would have risked it and gone for a standard back cut, or if I was concerned a bit use a coos bay... In my mind the gol plunge cut swedish timber dance method is really only needed on the hard leaners, that are prone to chair (alders and maples come to mind out here cedars too)

You could get away with falling that beast with a 32 or 36" bar without plunging both sides, just dog in and use the tip to establish your holding wood on the offside, takes a bit of practice to get it right but is way faster than plunging and lets you stay mostly on the one side of the tree, unless its a really big sob. There is a section in pro timber falling that kind of explains it...

 

[twochains]

I hate to give advice on a forum with alot of Pro loggers, plus different situations can void advice. What I do for really bad head leaners is this, it takes a little practice but here it goes:

Skip the face cut completely, plunge straight in and cut to the front, cutting the heart completely out, leaving a small amount of holding wood (like an inch or till the weight of the tree starts tightening on your bar), then cut back leaving a trigger on the back side, bring your saw out and pop the trigger. The snip on the front (if done right) will usually tear down the stump.

Caution: you must be right with the lean. If you leave too much on the front...it can chair a bit.

disclaimer...just my .02 cents :msp_w00t:

 

[RandyMac]

I hate to give advice on a forum with alot of Pro loggers, plus different situations can void advice. What I do for really bad head leaners is this, it takes a little practice but here it goes:

Skip the face cut completely, plunge straight in and cut to the front, cutting the heart completely out, leaving a small amount of holding wood (like an inch or till the weight of the tree starts tightening on your bar), then cut back leaving a trigger on the back side, bring your saw out and pop the trigger. The snip on the front (if done right) will usually tear down the stump.

Caution: you must be right with the lean. If you leave too much on the front...it can chair a bit.

disclaimer...just my .02 cents :msp_w00t:

oh dear.

 

[twochains]

oh dear.

See...I knew I shouldn't have said nothin'. Oh well, it works...dangerous...but it works. I saw a guy win a $100 from a disbeliever if the tree didn't chair. Like I said, just my .02 cents.