Help - White Ash Removal

[DRT_Guy]

Hey guys, I've done some removals already. Most of the removals ive done are easy though. Some Bradford pears and other trees the same size. Mainly trees in the area of 40'. Ive done some trims on a few oaks as well. I am currently attempting to do a White Ash removal and I CANNOT. This tree SUCKS! Its not dead, but I don't trust the tree. I'm climbing with a Petzl Sequoia SRT saddle and some 11.8mm DRENAline from teufelberger. I trust my gear, just not the tree. The tree doesn't have a dominant vertical chute. It split into 3 main chutes.
Question is:
How big of a cut on a lateral branch is to big? The grain of the wood is so straight I worry about barber chairs and peeling. I have felt so awkward in that tree between climbing up and constantly being pulled in another direction. The way the tree grew does not make it fun to climb. Ill post some pics.

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This was the tree before I started...​

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This is the tree so far...​

May not look like it, but I cut alot today. I was waiting on my ground guy to do his thing with the brush before we moved on. This tree scares me unlike any other has. Never had to cut one of these but today I did and I wasn't a fan of how they cut. Can I do massive cuts? See that branch with the orange rope on it? Can I cut that whole thing? I just don't want to risk a massive barber chair and I don't want to deal with the whole peeling all the way down the tree. The easiest cuts are done. Now I need to find a tie in point for this top branches. I need some advice on what to do with this thing.

Thanks guys

 

[TheJollyLogger]

Hey bud, welcome to AS. I'm not sure where to begin, because from the pics that tree is limbwalking heaven... so many good redirects and structure to work with. That peeler on the front scares me, did you not notch or undercut it? Why is that orange rope there in the first place, and is that just a home depot quicklink on it? The simple answer to your question is sure you could cut it where the orange rope is but why not walk out a few feet and reduce it down?

What is your background and training?

 

[irhunter]

This tree scares me unlike any other has.

I think what you need is more than the internet can provide.

What, you got a day into this thing? Walk away, and call it a learning experience.

Roy

 

[iowa_jim]

That tree looks so familiar. I took down a tree like that in my backyard. It's why I learned how to climb. I'm a safety professional among other things, and an industrial rope rescue technician, so I used that knowledge to keep me from dying in the process. Being a diy project, I could take my time with it as I learned.



I had to limb it out, since it hung over a couple houses, and I couldn't reach it with a lift. That's why the local tree service wouldn't touch it.



The biggest branch I cut had an 18" diameter. I took it slow. Back cut, wedges, cut the notch to leave lots of holding wood, and then applied an 8000 lb come along. It had a strong back lean, hence the order of operations. Pulled it/ wedged it vertical, then dropped it safely away from the house. That took a long time, but I was on the come along rather than dangling near the branch when it fell, which is my preference.

In looking back at my attempts, since I was taking the whole tree down, I should have invested in a pair of gafs.

I bought the right gear otherwise. Tried mrs and then quickly onto srt, or rads. Electric chainsaw or cordless recip saw for the cuts.

Don't go there if you are in a hurry, that's for certain.

 

[pdqdl]

Electric chainsaw or cordless recip saw for the cuts.

Ok. I think we may have found your problem.

If you are monkeying around on a rope without some good footing, you are going to wear yourself out using an electric chainsaw. I wouldn't even consider using a reciprocating saw, and I wouldn't do without spurs on a big removal. Nope! Not a chance.

I also wouldn't be concerned about any barber-chair. If you have a strong lean on a branch, you should be undercutting it deeply to prevent that problem. Then, using your powerful professional gasoline chainsaw, you can make a rapid cut on the backside and pretty much laugh at the probability of having an adverse barber-chair event.

Several of your comments make very strong suggestions to me that you are skipping the undercut and just top-cutting. Don't worry about the size of the branch. Make proper cuts with the right equipment, and you'll have no trouble. If you are concerned about the size of branch you are crashing down, then climb higher and cut off chunks you feel qualified to do.

It also looks to me like that tree could just be crashed to rear with a felling cut. Have you checked for that possibility?

 

[iowa_jim]

Ok. I think we may have found your problem.

If you are monkeying around on a rope without some good footing, you are going to wear yourself out using an electric chainsaw. I wouldn't even consider using a reciprocating saw, and I wouldn't do without spurs on a big removal. Nope! Not a chance.

Ha! You haven't scratched the surface of my problems!

But at the same time you have accurately assessed the weaknesses of my approach. There's no doubt that my methods would not be acceptable in a commercial setting.

 

[Lightning Performance]

Your life should be worth far more than messing with a dead or near dead ash tree. I climbed stuff they say couldn't be done. That said experience has had me walk away from three trees they refused to hire a crane on. Ash will chair if it wants to. Two bore cuts on leaners have exploded in my face. One split the stump and drove one side straight down into the ground. The chair ran twenty feet up and dumped the whole tree straight down where I stood. This was after the canopy was stripped off.

 

[pdqdl]

That would be a good reason to have used a different technique. Barber chair in ash should not be a problem unless you are using the wrong approach to felling the leaner.

Now I know you have quite a bit of experience, and your situations might have been different than usual. Just sayin'.

 

[iowa_jim]

I suspect that I'm being confused with the OP. At any rate, no worries friends! In my case I took a very long time to work through the tree, learning every step of the way, and stopping when I reached the end of my knowledge and skill set to study techniques for that scenario.

For what it's worth, my arborist BIL tells me that arborists hate taking these dead ash trees. I have learned why!

 

[pdqdl]

Nope. I was referring to Lightning Performance's comments.

I'd just as soon cut down an ash as any other dead tree, providing all other factors are equal. Some, like osage orange, mulberry, and a few others, are particularly strong long after they quit growing leaves. That's a lot better than some punky soft Ailanthus tree.

 

[TheJollyLogger]

I haven't dealt with EAB ash yet, but I'm fixing to move to Iowa, so I'm sure I'll run into some... can't say I'm looking forward to it from what yall describe. Sounds like hypoxilon oak on steroids as far as brittle goes.

 

[pdqdl]

Ash isn't very brittle. It's actually quite strong, and doesn't fail too much in ice storms. While climbing, they are good at hinging, and seldom pop loose like a cottonwood. Furthermore, they make excellent firewood, and dry rather swiftly. Good btu's too. You can burn ash firewood sooner than about any other wood.

I think they have a bad reputation for barber-chair because folks are cutting them down wrong, Ash trees are easy splitting firewood, and that probably translates to somewhat easier barber-chair if you use poor technique.

If the tree is already leaning, just make a nice deep face cut, so that you are cutting past the compression wood. When the tree begins to settle on your starting face cut, stop, finish the face cut, then back-cut without too many concerns. If you aren't good at pulling out soon enough,, then gently push in a wedge. When the tree binds up on the wedge, you've gone far enough. Finish the face cut to where you stopped your initial cut, and then drop the tree.

Otherwise, if not a leaner, then cut it down like any other deciduous tree. Same rules apply to any component you are cutting off while aloft.

I don't believe EAB-killed ash trees behave any differently than any other dead ash. They are on everyone's mind these days because there are so many of them. Not apparently well known: there are a bunch of other ash borers. The Kansas City area was having our own dead-ash epidemic long before the EAB came to town. Right now, they are in our area, but I haven't come across one yet. The other ash borers have been predominating for a long time. My two biggest customers lost nearly all their Autum-purple ash trees at least 6 years ago. I told 'em it was happening, but they all decided removal was better than endless prevention.

Of interest on this topic:

1. Emerald Ash Borer (Agrilus planipennis): This is one of the most well-known and destructive borers of ash trees. Native to Asia, it has become invasive in North America, causing significant damage to ash tree populations.
2. Lilac/Ash Borer (Podosesia syringae): This borer can infest various species, including ash and lilac.
3. Ash Bark Beetle (Hylesinus spp.): Several species of ash bark beetles can infest ash trees. They typically attack weakened or stressed trees, and their presence can make the tree more susceptible to other pests and diseases.
4. Two-Lined Chestnut Borer (Agrilus bilineatus): Although its primary host is chestnut, it can also infest ash trees, especially when they are stressed.
5. Redheaded Ash Borer (Neoclytus acuminatus): This borer has a wide range of host trees, including ash. The larvae bore into the wood, causing damage.
6. Ash/Lilac Clearwing Moth (Pennisetia marginata): The larvae of this moth species tunnel into the wood of ash and lilac trees, causing damage to the inner bark.

We have the ash/lilac and the Redheaded ash borers in profusion. They aren't nearly as fast acting as the EAB, and they don't usually wipe out healthy trees. They'll spend 2-5 years killing a tree, instead of one season like the EAB.
I got called a couple years ago to emergency spray an insect infestation in the front of an office building. When I arrived, there was almost nothing to see. The clearwing moths had nearly all flown away from the ash tree I had been predicting failure on for several years. Some of these office managers just don't understand biology at all.

 

[woodfarmer]

Bucket truck!