Dogging in Vs Self feeding - Different Length Teeth Too!

[Vintage Engine Repairs]

A lesson learn’t - I hope it helps anyone coming here in the future wanting to learn..

I was always under the impression, from watching Americans cutting, that my chains were blunt or I was doing something wrong. There is this idea that you don’t need to use our bucking spikes when the saw is sharp. I see you guys in America and Canada lay the bar on the log, pull the trigger and the saw draws itself in, loads up and bites instantly. I would try that out here and what tends to happen is the chain skates either side and skips and bounces… Often without using the bucking spikes it can seem slow going. The chain skates and skips over the log and the saw just screams, it’s not until you dog in and lean that you’ll start to get a cut well. For the benefit of anyone who may come to this forum and thinks that they’re doing something wrong and that using the dogs is a sign of a dull chain, consider what wood you’re cutting and the species and how dry it is.

Also, I see you people get half way through a cut, stop pulling the trigger and then can pull the trigger again and it tears through the wood. I tried that multiple times and it often just bogs the saw and won’t cut. Again I thought my saw was under powered and honestly, even with a 25” bar on a 660 I want more…

So much that I thought my saw had low compression so checked it, it’s fine. The wood out here is just different.




For anyone wanting to learn that lives in Australia, what i’ve learnt is, a lot of what you see and hear about saws and cutting in America and Canada doesn’t tend to apply. From bar length, tooth geometry, falling timber, sharpening etc.. best is to always ask and learn from those people who cut the species you are.

Also Tooth length, I was adamant, having learnt off YouTubers from America, teeth can be different lengths and cut just as fast or quick, just as efficiently and just as smooth! After all they show it can! Well finally after hearing from rogue and trains and initially being defiant, I have realised. Yes they’re right, they know what they’re talking about. Keep every tooth as close to exactly as the others every time as much as possible. It’s smoother, less chatter, cleaner cutting, quicker cutting.

This has been an interesting process involving a lot of apologising to the two guys below when I would challenge them with what I had seen online and how it was indeed wrong advise out here in Australia.

A shoutout and thank you to both @rogue60 for this advice and much more over the years, as well as @trains, who is always generous and willing to help too. Two great blokes worth reaching out to if you’re in Australia, who have put up with my crap and continued to help me out and guide me. Thanks guys.

Here is a full chisel, fresh ground chain, low aggressive depth gauges and it hardly cuts until I lean on it.





And as a fun comparison, although not fair as they’re totally different chains, here is the 500i and 660 running in Aussi wood. 500i full chisel ground, 660 semi chisel hand file.

 

[singinwoodwackr]

Old, dead Euc like that is in abundance in calif. when it gets like that try semi-chisel chain. For me, chisel would do exactly what you describe in dry Euc, and, would dull in seconds as the fine points of the cutters got rounded. The saw would cut, with leverage from the dogs, as the rest of the cutter remained sharp…for a while. I would have to resharpen a chisel chain half way through a cut in a log like that.
Some of that stuff might as well be petrified wood

 

[trains]

I know quite a few chaps here use .404 full chisel, but on the timber I cut, it just gets rounded over pretty quickly, I just use semi.
Green wood, full chisel is great.
Some dead eucs, you can get away with full chisel in .325, but not around here.

If I ever get over to the states, Im going to do one of those large tree felling courses I saw Jacob and Jed do a while back and have fun cutting balsa wood and listening to the hinge wood groan.

Edited to add.

Using the felling spikes is all about controlling the saw and positioning it in the right place for the cut your doing.
Sometimes, you dont need them, they just protect the power head, other times, you cant do the required cut/ cuts without them.

 

[L34]

I use the dogs 99% when cutting.
Mostly peppermint and white gum(Tassie)

 

[WI_Hedgehog]

There's Carlton chipper chain (in .404 only) from Whites Forrestry in Australia

Chipper seems slow at first but when it doesn't dull and keeps cutting and cutting and cutting...

I don't have eucalyptus in WI but do cut dirty, dirty wood. (landscaping)

 

[Cliff R]

Full chisel with correct raker height woln't need a lot of extra effort from the operator unless you are in some really hard wood that's been down for some time. This assumes your saw has enough power to run the bar length and tooth count you are using.

Here I tend to use shorter bars and more powerful saws. Improved power to bar length free just makes cutting a much better experience all the way around. Plus I'd add here than most of the cutting I'm doing these days are tops left over from logging operations on one of my properties.

When I first started running chainsaws half a Century ago I was your typical "hard head" and wouldn't even look at smaller saws and it had to be 3/8" full chisel with the rakers knocked down some or I just laughed at it.

As I got older and wiser I started outfitting my line-up with smaller saws with .325" semi-chisel and 3/8" LP with round tooth cutters. I tend to outfit them with smaller bars than what they will pull, and reap the benefits of seldom if ever stalling them against the clutch "pushing" them pretty hard. They just bore right on thru whatever I'm cutting even if I dig in with the spikes and put heavy load on them.

Although most of my saws these days don't have full chisel chains on them I leave a 30" full chisel skip tooth on the 480CD when I get a big blow down in the woods that needs my attention. That saw has enough power I can bury the entire bar in the log (green wood) and make quick work of it and I can dog in and push it pretty much as hard as I want and it doesn't grumble much. Even so big trees are rare in these parts so most of my larger saws will be outfitted with 20" bars and 3/8" semi-chisel hand sharpened and rakers lowered just a tad.

One also needs to master the art of chain sharpening for anything you are running to be effective. You also need to outfit your lineup with saws that are more toward "professional" grade with excellent power to weight ratios rather than these POS box store and throw away crap they sell these days. Also keep in mind that even the "big" names in saws sell bottom shelf models that aren't worth two squirts of duck poop no matter what bar/chain combo you put on them or what your skill sets are otherwise......FWIW.....

 

[jblnut]

I have learnt a lot on here about what chain to use where and have been cutting wood much more effectively because of it. Full chisel when falling and bucking up clean and green stuff, semi chisel almost 100% the rest of the time. I cut mostly softwoods (cottonwood, box elder, cedar, pine, poplar) so I use a full chisel with the rakers dropped an extra bit. When I get into some oak, maple, ironwood or ash I’ll use a semi chisel with rakers set normal. I buy name brand chains for the falling saws and el cheapo stuff for cutting dry/dirty stuff. The name brand chains don’t seem to stay sharp any longer than the cheap eBay crap in the dry/dirty wood so I figure I may as well sharpen a cheap chain often instead of an expensive one.

 

[Vintage Engine Repairs]

One also needs to master the art of chain sharpening for anything you are running to be effective.

This is very true, I try my best, but really I’m just a hack. I can do the basics to get it to cut decent, but don’t have the knowledge or experience to get the best from them.

 

[Vintage Engine Repairs]

Old, dead Euc like that is in abundance in calif. when it gets like that try semi-chisel chain. For me, chisel would do exactly what you describe in dry Euc, and, would dull in seconds as the fine points of the cutters got rounded. The saw would cut, with leverage from the dogs, as the rest of the cutter remained sharp…for a while. I would have to resharpen a chisel chain half way through a cut in a log like that.
Some of that stuff might as well be petrified wood

Thanks for sharing, I’ve tried both but really don’t have the time on a saw to say I can tell what lasts longer, but also, because I just brush the teeth with the file each tank to make sure it lasts the next tank and I don’t have to stop early, I haven’t found one lasts longer than the other yet lol.

There are a few pro cutters, rogue and the mill guy I cut at that will only use full chisel. They won’t run semi as it’s too slow. The guy at the mill was shocked I am running 3/8 semi on the 660. He told me to get rid of that crap and put .404 chisel back on LOL.

I’ll continue to try different chains and over time I’ll eventually find what I like and what timber / condition can be run with what chain lol

 

[Vintage Engine Repairs]

I know quite a few chaps here use .404 full chisel, but on the timber I cut, it just gets rounded over pretty quickly, I just use semi.
Green wood, full chisel is great.
Some dead eucs, you can get away with full chisel in .325, but not around here.

If I ever get over to the states, Im going to do one of those large tree felling courses I saw Jacob and Jed do a while back and have fun cutting balsa wood and listening to the hinge wood groan.

Edited to add.

Using the felling spikes is all about controlling the saw and positioning it in the right place for the cut your doing.
Sometimes, you dont need them, they just protect the power head, other times, you cant do the required cut/ cuts without them.

Thanks for sharing mate

 

[NSEric]

Your wood is the total opposite of the wood I cut for firewood.
I cut up mostly green maple trees, they cut like butter. You can use a small saw with an aggressive full chisel chain and it will cut fast and hold an edge for a couple tanks of gas.

 

[pioneerguy600]

E ver since joining on this site I have tried to say in any post I made concerning chain sharpening that a chain should be shaped to suit local conditions and type of wood being cut , there is no one way to suit all the varieties of wood found all around this planet. I have had a chance to cut most species all across NA including hard dry eucalyptus in California. The soft wood I am most often cutting is definitely different than the harder species that are found in the dryer areas West of me.Chainsaws have certainly changed for the better since I first started using them, the big heavy 100 plus cc saws were good for bucking but not so good for felling, they still better than the misery whips. Even those needed to be filed/sharpened a bit different between softer species and harder woods. Most users never cut enough to discover a better technique for setting up their chains, I still encounter many that fuss about the angles a specific manufacturer prints on the box a chain comes in , trying to be specific to the set in print angles that will work and cut most wood fiber that is commonly found. Many times I have had those watching me file chain pipe up and say ,you are filing wrong, there were times that caused me to become irritated but that passed quickly, I realized they knew little to nothing other than what they had read or seen on YouTube, real world experience will teach one different/better.

 

[singinwoodwackr]

Thanks for sharing, I’ve tried both but really don’t have the time on a saw to say I can tell what lasts longer, but also, because I just brush the teeth with the file each tank to make sure it lasts the next tank and I don’t have to stop early, I haven’t found one lasts longer than the other yet lol.

There are a few pro cutters, rogue and the mill guy I cut at that will only use full chisel. They won’t run semi as it’s too slow. The guy at the mill was shocked I am running 3/8 semi on the 660. He told me to get rid of that crap and put .404 chisel back on LOL.

I’ll continue to try different chains and over time I’ll eventually find what I like and what timber / condition can be run with what chain lol

Sharpen when dull, not each tank.
Start with a new or newly sharpened (correctly) chain. Remember how well it cuts. When it stops cutting that way, sharpen.
Otherwise everything wears out very fast...bars, motors, sprokets...

 

[Vintage Engine Repairs]

Sharpen when dull, not each tank.
Start with a new or newly sharpened (correctly) chain. Remember how well it cuts. When it stops cutting that way, sharpen.
Otherwise everything wears out very fast...bars, motors, sprokets...

Yep, generally around the 1 tank mark I can feel it’s not biting the wood like it should. I’ll only sharpen if it needs it, but it seems to be the case at the moment that after a tank, a couple passes on each tooth keeps the chain biting and pulling rather than needing more pressure / me leaning on more and more for it to cut.

Edit: I look forward to trying different chains. I’m fairly sure I have a decent .404 bar in the loft too, I’ll check.

 

[singinwoodwackr]

Sounds like Norcal Euc, 5yr dry, is harder than Ausi stuff
I've cut it when getting 3 rounds to a sharpen was good.

Like cutting Purpleheart, even with a carbide blade...

 

[Vintage Engine Repairs]

Sounds like Norcal Euc, 5yr dry, is harder than Ausi stuff
I've cut it when getting 3 rounds to a sharpen was good.

It’s not so much about the hardness of wood that seems to cause me the need to resharpen, it’s all the sand ingress and termites on and in the wood that is the killer. Though, this week the wood was so much nicer than the previous.

Also stones too, there seems to be small stones everywhere

 

[Vintage Engine Repairs]

Checked the loft for .404 but it’s the large mount. It was from the 076 super I sold ages ago.

 

[singinwoodwackr]

Checked the loft for .404 but it’s the large mount. It was from the 076 super I sold ages ago. View attachment 1154906

Get an adapter

 

[Vintage Engine Repairs]

Get an adapter

interesting I didn’t know they made one!
I’m going to grab a full chisel chain next week in 3/8 and try both side by side. The only difference is I’ll put the 10 degree down on the chisel and see how it goes. I ran .404 chisel a month ago there, but the depth gauge guide I use sets them a bit too aggressive even on the hard setting. If I go .404 I’ll just tweak the height of the depth gauges so it’s not quite so aggressive and be a bit less reliant on the progressive to give me the final height.

 

[singinwoodwackr]

Madsen's has them