Got the 35HP Vanguard on the SC252

stumper63 · Mar 7, 2011

Finally got the 35 HP Vanguard on the '99 252 a couple weeks ago. I've put about 40 hours on it so far. Takes making a new mounting plate and a little welding, easy wiring, but boy is it worth it. The clutch and hydraulic pump mounts are exactly the same as the Kohlers, bolt right up. I did have a 1-1/2" jackshaft made, though you don't have too.

I also put on the Multi-Tip wheel at the same time. Really smooth cutting action, can hardly tell when you engage the cutter wheel, it's that well-balanced.

Also put on a 3.5" hydraulic pump pulley and changed the drive motor sprocket from a 16 tooth to a 20 tooth.

With all these mod's the little 252 is now a stump-cutting beast compared to its old self. Plyscamp and others have done this years ago and had nothing but success with the engine and no problems related to drive train or frame being too "light" to handle this size engine.

Anyway, if any of you have been trying to decide whether to make the conversion or not, just do it. Soooo much faster. And only a couple hundred more than the factory 27hp Kohler is going to cost you.

Stumper63

lxt · Mar 8, 2011

stumper63 said:
Finally got the 35 HP Vanguard on the '99 252 a couple weeks ago. I've put about 40 hours on it so far. Takes making a new mounting plate and a little welding, easy wiring, but boy is it worth it. The clutch and hydraulic pump mounts are exactly the same as the Kohlers, bolt right up. I did have a 1-1/2" jackshaft made, though you don't have too.

I also put on the Multi-Tip wheel at the same time. Really smooth cutting action, can hardly tell when you engage the cutter wheel, it's that well-balanced.

Also put on a 3.5" hydraulic pump pulley and changed the drive motor sprocket from a 16 tooth to a 20 tooth.

With all these mod's the little 252 is now a stump-cutting beast compared to its old self. Plyscamp and others have done this years ago and had nothing but success with the engine and no problems related to drive train or frame being too "light" to handle this size engine.

Anyway, if any of you have been trying to decide whether to make the conversion or not, just do it. Soooo much faster. And only a couple hundred more than the factory 27hp Kohler is going to cost you.

Stumper63

Its a nice upgrade...............BUT, only if you never want to sell the machine or trade it in! thats the down side, no one wants to buy a modified, non-original stumper due to the unknown!!!

LXT...............

stumper63 · Mar 8, 2011

Wow, that's a pretty broad statement LXT. I think it would be hard to know what thousands upon thousands of people in the tree industry would do. You must have asked them all.
Personally I would welcome a used machine with upgrades, would have loved to have bought one like I have without having to do the mod's myself.
As long as you know what the changes are and any different parts, what's the problem? Sure, if it's all hacked up and botched, but that's not my style.
If you don't want one with mod's, then don't buy it, buy a new one with a warranty that's a 1/3 slower and three times the cost.
I didn't buy a '99 stumper to be worried about resale, just gonna use it until it dies.
I do still have my '03 with 4300 hours without modifications, original Kohler 25hp engine, still runs fine, perhaps you would like to buy it? Oh wait, I put a Sandvik wheel on it, guess you wouldn't be interested.

And why would you discourage the AS members from doing something that could potentially help their business with little investment? Guess all those guys that hop up their saws are seriously misled.

Guess I'm just saying I disagree with your generalization, gotta be careful with those.

Stumper63

lxt · Mar 8, 2011

its not really a broad statement! & No, I didnt ask any stumpers, cause frankly when someone mods something they think its better!!! personal preference!

however.........disagree as you might, take that B&S powerplant on yer 252 down to the vermeer dealer & try to trade it in, good luck! I know if Im buying something that has been bastardized & non conforming to factory specs............I plan on keepin it till death!! cause most dont want it!

i have a 252, the kohler is a dam good engine & worth way more than any B&S welded up, home made attachment, jack shaft.......garbage is!! you can have your machine how you want....but bottom line, its worth much less now!!! just ask the dealer!

LXT..............

lxt · Mar 8, 2011

stumper63 said:
Personally I would welcome a used machine with upgrades, would have loved to have bought one like I have without having to do the mod's myself.
As long as you know what the changes are and any different parts, what's the problem?
If you don't want one with mod's, then don't buy it, buy a new one with a warranty that's a 1/3 slower and three times the cost.

I do still have my '03 with 4300 hours without modifications, original Kohler 25hp engine, still runs fine, perhaps you would like to buy it? Oh wait, I put a Sandvik wheel on it, guess you wouldn't be interested.

Stumper63

see here are the problems...........you did the Mods yourself??? Hmmm.....vermeer has a dept of engineers for just such a thing.....but you can do better? ya might wanna consider why they didnt do what you did in the first place.

I doubt you know from an engineering standpoint what changes to make & what parts to use?? saws are different, the engines are purposely restricted for EPA reasons & when hot rodded they wear much quicker!

My 252...........is far from slow, it more of a torque driven motor for the application while your might be faster in the speed dept. per say, mine will take a chunk outta a rhinos azz & keep diggin (while your b&s dies)

03 with 4300 hrs and a sandvik disk.............LOL, buy it?? nah.... I got 1- 252 the other stumper id get would be diesel & track driven like what I had a few years back!! modding will get ya so far..........just get one that doesnt need it, you got 2- 252`s...........????? man get the next size up or better!!

LXT......................

jhg · Mar 8, 2011

I would buy a modified 252 anyday. I know the machine very well and could easily determine if the mods made were done half assed or not.

I plan on putting a 35hp on mine one day. I have already made all the other mods noted in this post.

But to the point: I think if the only option that appeals to you when selling a machine is the security of trading at the dealers, or buying a machine that is stock, thats your power. But it is a stretch to say not do so is somehow costing us money. Not everyone likes to park between the stripes all the time. Live and let live.
Also, the 252 is a machine that has been modified and tested by more experienced stumpers than you lxt. Nothing personal. Plyscamp is pretty much the benchmark in the business. And Carlton puts the 35hp Briggs Vanguard on its similar machine. Are they idiots over there? To say that engine is junk is simply ignoring reality.

Thanks Stumper63 for the info and pictures.

Joshua

stumper63 · Mar 9, 2011

You're welcome jhg.

You're right, the 35hp Vanguard twin cylinder is used by Bandit, Rayco, Carlton. Last time I was at the Carlton factory the owner explained that they put the Vanguard and a 38hp Kohler on when testing engines for the 4012, they chose the Vanguard.
That said, obviously my experience with the 25hp Kohler was phenomenal, 4300 hours I personally all put on without any problems, so I agree that Kohler makes great engines. I just chose to side with the engineers from three stump cutter manufacturer's and a couple of other stumpers here on AS that had chosen the engine and had great results.
So I'll just use my 53 ft lbs of torque instead of the 39 I previously had and enjoy the increased productivity.
Like I said in the original post, if it was even read, who buys a '99 252 with the thought of trade-in value or resale? It's meant to be used until the bitter end.

If you're thinking about making the switch, don't wait three years like I did. Do it now and keep the original motor as a spare or just sell it and don't look back. With all the mods you've done as many others of us have, the little machine rocks.

Stumper63

wheelloader123 · Mar 9, 2011

How much did the new engine cost you? I had a Carton 2500-4 that I had considered doing the same with, but in the end chose to buy a Vermeer 352 instead (I got an exceptional deal on it). What would you estimate your total cost for the conversion (engine, misc. parts, etc.)?

wheelloader123 · Mar 9, 2011

How many total hours would you say you have performing the conversion?

lxt · Mar 9, 2011

jhg said:
I would buy a modified 252 anyday. I know the machine very well and could easily determine if the mods made were done half assed or not.

I plan on putting a 35hp on mine one day. I have already made all the other mods noted in this post.

But to the point: I think if the only option that appeals to you when selling a machine is the security of trading at the dealers, or buying a machine that is stock, thats your power. But it is a stretch to say not do so is somehow costing us money. Not everyone likes to park between the stripes all the time. Live and let live.
Also, the 252 is a machine that has been modified and tested by more experienced stumpers than you lxt. Nothing personal. Plyscamp is pretty much the benchmark in the business. And Carlton puts the 35hp Briggs Vanguard on its similar machine. Are they idiots over there? To say that engine is junk is simply ignoring reality.

Thanks Stumper63 for the info and pictures.

Joshua

Im not saying not too do anything!! & understanding that his machine is a 99 makes a big difference..........dont think his intent is to trade in!!

if you look at bandit, carlton & others who use 35hp motors & compare the overall chassis, weldments, attachment points, etc....there is a big difference, nothing wrong with modding something..........but one should understand things are gonna wear out much quicker on a machine that wasnt meant to carry that hp to begin with.

so you have modded & experimented with the 252? yes there are many with much more experience than me.............but atleast I have some experience!! Im wondering about you? all im saying is most that see a machine with other than the original parts, engine, etc... may shy away!!

BTW............thats a nice machine there stumper!!!!

LXT..............

stumper63 · Mar 9, 2011

Engine, muffler, with shipping was $2285 from Small Engine Warehouse. If you get one from them also order the oil drain valve at the same time, about $15, replaces one of the drain plugs. The drain hose from Vermeer that comes with the Kohler engine won't fit the Vanguard.

Misc steel probably $30. Fasteners, paint - use Vermeer's rattle can, it's tough and matches really well, etc. another $40.
Probably close to $2400 all said and done.

A new 27hp Kohler is about the same money as the Vanguard, at least was a couple months ago.

Didn't work on it straight through, probably took about three days, that's doing the steel fab the old-fashioned way, grinder, drill, and file.

Stumper63

cuttinscott · Mar 9, 2011

The Briggs Big Block is a AWESOME Choice......... There is only one spot for Kohler Commands thats down their Toilets!!!!

A Leaf Debris Vacumn Manufacture I Sell for tested the 38 kohler against the 35 Briggs BB and the BB walked all over the Kohler! That Briggs and Stratton Big Block is Actually Built By Daihatsu (Toyota) in Japan.

Scott

jhg · Mar 9, 2011

lxt said:
so you have modded & experimented with the 252? yes there are many with much more experience than me.............but atleast I have some experience!! Im wondering about you? ...LXT..............

I'm not getting into a pissing match about experience with anyone lxt, including you. I have more than some and less than others.
Regarding the 252 and stump grinding in general, I have taken the knowlege of others like Plyscamp and Stumper63 etc and simply applied it to my own business and understanding of the machine . I was simply responding to some of your comments that struck me as particularly off base given what those with massive experience using this machine have proven.
We just disagree thats all. No problem.

Joshua

stumper63 · Mar 9, 2011

Scott,

Before I purchased the Vanguard 35hp I read lots of reports on other forums and it seemed like the overall feeling was that the Vanguard Big Block has been a reliable power plant for several years now, not sure when they came out. It seemed like alot of turf equpment manufacturers go with the Vanguard.
I can't really comment on the Kohler big blocks, except what the president of Carlton told me when I visited the factory in July 2007. I know the Kohler small blocks can be very reliable, from my own experience noted above.

Do you see much turf equipment powered by the Kohler big blocks?

Anyway, it is what it is, and time will tell. So far, which isn't long, about 40 hours, the thing purrs like a kitten.

LXT, thanks for the picture kudos, that was the easy part. And as far as frame or drive issues, time will tell, I know Plyscamp has over 750 hours on his without a single issue. I actually had the mechanic at local Vermeer tell me he saw a 252 at the factory with a Vanguard 35hp on it awhile back, a prototype. My guess is that in the hands of inexperienced operators you may be able to overstress the machine, and alot of these 252's are sold to the rental market. But that's not me. Also, I would think they want to keep some distance between the 252 and the 352 with its 35hp gas engine option.

Stumper63

Plyscamp · Mar 11, 2011

Glad to see you finally got er done stumper. Mine now has a little over 900 hours on it and no issues at this point. My old diesel unit with 4,400 hours on it (63 Foot Pounds of torque) is starting to use oil. Last time I checked Lombardini wanted over $300.00 for a set of rings. If thats any indication of pricing im afraid to ask about a set of pistons. May just pull it and put a Briggs big bore on it. Dont worry about the critics on here they just have more time to grind stumps than we do.
I would doubt that Vermeer will ever release the 252 with the 35 HP on it. It has the same swing arc as the 352, its much lighter than the 352, the big block has more torque than the 35 on the 352, easier to get in and out than the 352 and certainly would sell for less than the 352.
Again congradulations on the conversion, you now have a SC252B (Beast).

stumper63 · Mar 11, 2011

Plyscamp, I'm liking the new model designation SC252B. It sure is alot less work now with this setup. Between the Vanguard and the Multi-Tip wheel I can grind so much longer before having to back off and rake chips. In fact, unless the stump is over about 3' or so I can make the two passes without having to back off. The grinder just keeps powering through and over the chip pile underneath. No wonder so many guys love their higher hp stump grinders.

I'm 100 hours behind your diesel unit, but I don't want to grind another 100 hours on the old 25hp machine. Any way I can tamper the hour meter and beat your 4400 hours? Got to be close to a record with these units. Anyone else put more hours on their 252?

Guess I should sell the old unit, still would be a reliable stumper for someone who perhaps isn't just grinding stumps all day like we do.

Stumper63

NCgrinder · Mar 23, 2011

Stumper63: Thats a great looking conversion...I have 2000 hrs on my 252,and the 25 Kohler just keeps on going, but I'm looking for any excuse to change to a 35 HP ... What is the Model number Briggs you used? Just want to be sure when I order ...
Did you use the stock Vermeer clutch or did you upgrade?

Also,anybody know of another source, besides Vermeer, to buy a new clutch and a new hydraulic pump??? When i do the engine conversion ,I'm going to change both.

stumper63 · Mar 24, 2011

NCGrinder:
I know what you mean, my 25 Kohler still won't die, but now I wish I had done the conversion a few years ago.
Anyway, the Briggs model # is 613477-0130-E1. Here's the stat's from website psep.biz:

35 HP - Vanguard Series OHV V-twin, cast iron cylinder sleeves, multi-stage industrial air cleaner, 12 volt electric start, 20amp alternator, 1-7/16" x 4-1/2" Keyed crankshaft D/T 5/8-18, Manual throttle, push / pull choke, key switch, 5" round muffler (starter side outlet), has fuel pump, no tank,

I bought mine from Small Engine Warehouse, but it looks like they are out of stock of them. They do have a 613477-1118 that looks like it has the same spec's, but you better check.

I am using the stock 252 clutch.

Anyway, have fun!

Stumper63

Plyscamp · Mar 24, 2011

NCGrinder

As far as I know the only source for the clutch is Vermeer and believe me I have gone as far as the factory Rep trying to find a source. The real key to clutch life is cooling. I modify my clutch covers to allow as much air flow as possible.

The Hydraulic Pump is a Danfoss part # 29YBADO12-2LB. The last one I purchased was in Dec. of 2004. Vermeer wanted $329.00 + Tax. I went to the Danfoss Dealer in town and paid $231.00 and that included the Tax and Air Frieght.

NCgrinder · Mar 24, 2011

Stumper63: That -1118 seems to come without a muffler
Did the - 0130 come complete w/muffler ?
Or what did you use?

Plyscamp: Thanks for the info . Finding out the pump# info is gold. Mine is already whining .. Now , I'll just have to bite the bullet on the clutch.

Thanks to both of you guys for the info
Stan

Got the 35HP Vanguard on the SC252

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