Are all chains created equal?

Jonsered2095 · Oct 6, 2007

I have been searching the archives for the last week and have not come across any real facts regarding the relationship of different chains cutter width (kerf) to guage and bar groove. For example: some say Stihl is 0.063" @ the rivet, regardless of guage. Oregon is not. I thought we could measure different chains to find out their true nature, and create a future reference.

I am interested to know the measurements of Stihl, Oregon, Carlton, and Windsor chains. But post them all.

Please measure [with a vernier] your chain and post your findings in the below format, or if it has already been posted confirm/reject it.

Oregon 73LG

Pitch = 3/8" (.3669")
Gauge @ rivet = 0.058"
Gauge @ drive tang = 0.057"
Chassis = 0.168"
Cutters (kerf) = 0.275" half used

Stihl PM

Pitch = 3/8" (.3669")
Gauge @ rivet = 0.050"
Gauge @ drive tang = 0.050"
Chassis = 0.150"
Cutters (kerf) = _____ very used

2dogs · Oct 6, 2007

Get a catalg from Madsen's and an Oregon booklet, they will answer many of your questions. The bottom line is that there are wide, standard, and narrow kerf chains. The reasoning behind their construction varies.

Crofter · Oct 6, 2007

I think oregon, carlton and windsor use pretty much the same system and can interchange presets. Stihl is different and tie straps are heavier. Carlton uses the same system for 50 and 58 gu. just reducing the thickness of the drive tang for .050 but apparently in times past they used a 50 thou thick also in the rivet area like the low pro chain you measured. Unless you mix and match components it is not much of a concern. If you are looking for a competition chain though, you would not start out with a .063 gu Stihl chain; they carry a noticeable weight penalty and a bit wider at the rivets.

Jonsered2095 · Oct 6, 2007

2dogs said:
Get a catalg from Madsen's and an Oregon booklet, they will answer many of your questions. The bottom line is that there are wide, standard, and narrow kerf chains. The reasoning behind their construction varies.

I'm looking for real measures: what exactly is the difference(s)

Crofter said:
I think oregon, carlton and windsor use pretty much the same system and can interchange presets. Stihl is different and tie straps are heavier. Carlton uses the same system for 50 and 58 gu. just reducing the thickness of the drive tang for .050 but apparently in times past they used a 50 thou thick also in the rivet area like the low pro chain you measured. Unless you mix and match components it is not much of a concern. If you are looking for a competition chain though, you would not start out with a .063 gu Stihl chain; they carry a noticeable weight penalty and a bit wider at the rivets.

Not racing: crosscutting and milling using the same chain type

Thanks guys.

There does not seem to be any real information (measurements) available as proof. I would like to know exactly the differences to make an informed decision myself.

I am particularly interested in the kerf sizes for each particular chain as I want to run (if practical) all chains the same for all bars and as narrow as practical for all applications. This way I can buy a reel of just one chain type and cut my own for different length bars. There seems to be a choice of 0.050/0.058/0.063 up to 32" bar, though the cutter may be exactly the same, at least with some brand chains. Yet on bars 36" and over 0.063 only. Why?

Do I run 3/8, and are the cutters [on all chains] the same size?
(Is there an advantage running one brand chain over another because the cutter cuts a smaller kerf, or is it negligible)

Or

Do I run .325 in 0.063 gauge, and are the cutters [on all chains] the same size?
(Does it have a narrower cutter (kerf) than all 3/8)

I thought a measured reference of such a fundamental part of a chainsaw would be a great addition to this site. IF I ASKED WHICH CHAINSAW..... :sword:

Crofter · Oct 6, 2007

Some chains have a wider cutter. I think some are called X . I dont know whether the Stihl Classic is still available but it was supposed to cut a wider kerf that is an advantage in big cedar and other wet buttress wood. There is likely more kerf width variance on .325 chains, Stihl RS the widest. The .063 chains have slightly more bearing area at the rivet / drive link joint for less chain lengthening with wear. I would go with .050 chain reel then when you wallow out the bar, which you will do milling, you can open the bar to .058 with a narrow cutting disk and get another run out of it. Carlton and the windsor made house brands like Sabre or Woodsman Pro are available from Baileys Online, a sponsor here, at a good price. Carlton seems by my experience and general consensus to be a bit harder than Oregon. Baileys also has it in a ready made ripping configuration too. If you want to jig up to do it consistently you can narrow the kerf of a new chain for ripping by taking some of the set out of it. That is on chisel chain. have not tried it on semi. There may be some guys on the milling forum here with more experience on ripping chain.

Jonsered2095 · Oct 6, 2007

Thanks guys.

I appreciate your sharing of information and I will take all on board.

Maybe the dealers could provide some insight on what they stock and receive some feed back from users as to the differences.

Dealers... :help:

maccall · Oct 7, 2007

Jonsered2095 said:
I am particularly interested in the kerf sizes for each particular chain as I want to run (if practical) all chains the same for all bars and as narrow as practical for all applications. This way I can buy a reel of just one chain type and cut my own for different length bars. There seems to be a choice of 0.050/0.058/0.063 up to 32" bar, though the cutter may be exactly the same, at least with some brand chains. Yet on bars 36" and over 0.063 only. Why?

Do I run 3/8, and are the cutters [on all chains] the same size?
(Is there an advantage running one brand chain over another because the cutter cuts a smaller kerf, or is it negligible)

Or

Do I run .325 in 0.063 gauge, and are the cutters [on all chains] the same size?
(Does it have a narrower cutter (kerf) than all 3/8)

I thought a measured reference of such a fundamental part of a chainsaw would be a great addition to this site. IF I ASKED WHICH CHAINSAW..... :sword:

It's a worthy cause, but you are seeking relationships were there are none to be found. The gauge simply has no relationship to the kerf, other than by coincidence. I've tried to achieve the same goal as you, but already at only a few saws I've failed more than I've succeeded... :bang:

A Stihl .325 RSC chain has the same kerf no matter what gauge it has, and thats because it's the same chain, or same model of chain if you want. The model is what's sets the kerf of the chain, the gauge is just what's popular in your area.

At your place .050 is a popular gauge for Stihl chains, right? Well, here .050 gauge is only used for the toy saws, the real ones have .063 - still we have the same cutters and kerf since it's the same model of chain.

So, just pick what gauge is easy to find in your area.

Btw, I think Freakingstang has done what you want. Maybe ask him what he settled for and why.

Jonsered2095 · Oct 7, 2007

maccall said:
It's a worthy cause, but you are seeking relationships were there are none to be found. The gauge simply has no relationship to the kerf, other than by coincidence. I've tried to achieve the same goal as you, but already at only a few saws I've failed more than I've succeeded... :bang:

A Stihl .325 RSC chain has the same kerf no matter what gauge it has, and thats because it's the same chain, or same model of chain if you want. The model is what's sets the kerf of the chain, the gauge is just what's popular in your area.

At your place .050 is a popular gauge for Stihl chains, right? Well, here .050 gauge is only used for the toy saws, the real ones have .063 - still we have the same cutters and kerf since it's the same model of chain.

So, just pick what gauge is easy to find in your area.

Btw, I think Freakingstang has done what you want. Maybe ask him what he settled for and why.

Thanks maccall.

I have read a lot of threads lately about whether or not there is a relationship with gauge. General concensus is Stihl uses the same cutter regardless of gauge for the given pitch. However I am not so sure with other brands (see LG chain above - at least the chassis is different). Or if the other brands cut the same size kerf as equivalent Stihl brands. And just what the difference in cutter sizes (measured) are between different pitch chains.

Crofter · Oct 7, 2007

The narrowest full sized 3/8 chain will be in .050 or .058 (same) the .063 guage will be .005" wider. Stihl likely the same width in all guages. Unless you can accurately calculate how many angels can dance on the head of a pin you will not be able to notice the difference of .005" in the kerf width. That is chainsaw chain not fret saw blades. Get a reel of .050 chisel in carleton or oregon and go cut some wood! flip a coin if you cant decide.

"who studies and studies and does not what he knows,
is like one who plows and plows and never sows"

Jonsered2095 · Oct 7, 2007

359 views: 9 posts (half of which are mine)

Crofter said:
The narrowest full sized 3/8 chain will be in .050 or .058 (same) the .063 guage will be .005" wider. Stihl likely the same width in all guages. Unless you can accurately calculate how many angels can dance on the head of a pin you will not be able to notice the difference of .005" in the kerf width. That is chainsaw chain not fret saw blades. Get a reel of .050 chisel in carleton or oregon and go cut some wood! flip a coin if you cant decide.

"who studies and studies and does not what he knows,
is like one who plows and plows and never sows"

Oh I cut, amongst other things - just not full time. I like to sow too!:taped: But that's another story.

If 0.005" is indeed the difference for all gauges in 3/8 and on all chains, then I would consider it negligible. But my reasoning would be to go 0.063" and get all bars in this gauge - same chain on all bars.

That just leaves me to consider .325" as an option.

Thanks for taking the time Crofter.

:cheers:

If actual measurements were posted here we could all just use the search function to find out for ourselves. Everyone (well most) knows different pitch chain has different size cutters, but no-one can state [or is stating] categorically that chain X,Y, or Z has x.xxx" size cutter. And I would have thought a forum dedicated to chainsaw oriented activities would have this basic information already. Thanks to all who posted.

Crofter · Oct 7, 2007

It is not basic information in that it is not published anywhere I know of; heck only a few that do some measuring know that 3/8 pitch chain is actually about the .369 pitch that you measured it at. I think you are lucky to have gained as much information as you did, since the manufacturers dont give it out. For the reasons stated in an earlier post, I would go with all .050 guage as it leaves more options later including 3/8 low pro but that is your call.

Jonsered2095 · Oct 7, 2007

Crofter said:
It is not basic information in that it is not published anywhere I know of; heck only a few that do some measuring know that 3/8 pitch chain is actually about the .3669 pitch that you measured it at. I think you are lucky to have gained as much information as you did, since the manufacturers dont give it out.

Yes. That has become all too obvious unfortunately. But it should be basic information I think and AS members have the opportunity to make it so - it can make the saw work better [or worse] after all. There are some here who I imagine should; or do know; or if not are capable of finding out, if only for themselves. I know not all own a micrometer.

For the reasons stated in an earlier post, I would go with all .050 guage as it leaves more options later including 3/8 low pro but that is your call.

Yes. That has been my quandry. All bars and chain the same in 3/8 0.063" gauge leaves out 3/8 lo pro (0.050" gauge for those reading). Or having bars up to 32" length in 3/8 0.050" gauge leaves out bars longer than 32" in the same gauge. The .325 pitch in 0.063" gauge could accomodate all length bars except as you say lo pro, but I may be alright without lo pro in this instance. I was hoping with measurements I could make this decision. Perhaps if I run 0.063" gauge [in either pitch] on all bars I could just keep a lo pro set-up for milling.

More thought needed.

RiverRat2 · Oct 7, 2007

Jonsered2095 said:
I'm looking for real measures: what exactly is the difference(s)

Not racing: crosscutting and milling using the same chain type

Thanks guys.

There does not seem to be any real information (measurements) available as proof. I would like to know exactly the differences to make an informed decision myself.

I am particularly interested in the kerf sizes for each particular chain as I want to run (if practical) all chains the same for all bars and as narrow as practical for all applications. This way I can buy a reel of just one chain type and cut my own for different length bars. There seems to be a choice of 0.050/0.058/0.063 up to 32" bar, though the cutter may be exactly the same, at least with some brand chains. Yet on bars 36" and over 0.063 only. Why?

Do I run 3/8, and are the cutters [on all chains] the same size?
(Is there an advantage running one brand chain over another because the cutter cuts a smaller kerf, or is it negligible)

Or

Do I run .325 in 0.063 gauge, and are the cutters [on all chains] the same size?
(Does it have a narrower cutter (kerf) than all 3/8)

I thought a measured reference of such a fundamental part of a chainsaw would be a great addition to this site. IF I ASKED WHICH CHAINSAW..... :sword:

From a working saw stand point I find the .063 gauge Stihl chain flat holds up the best day in day out,,,It stretches less and holds up well,,,especially on my 066's and will hold up to the torque of an 084 the 084 eats 050 chain BTW on a couple of modified bars I've built,,,,,

as far as the cutters being the same size between brands,,, no I dont think so,,,,,,,,,,

SawTroll · Oct 8, 2007

Crofter said:
It is not basic information in that it is not published anywhere I know of; heck only a few that do some measuring know that 3/8 pitch chain is actually about the .369 pitch that you measured it at. I think you are lucky to have gained as much information as you did, since the manufacturers dont give it out. For the reasons stated in an earlier post, I would go with all .050 guage as it leaves more options later including 3/8 low pro but that is your call.

About .367, I think.....

Jonsered2095 · Oct 8, 2007

SawTroll said:
About .367, I think.....

Troll. .3669 to be exact [including lo pro] no such thing as .365 & .375

I think it was just a typo.

Have you got a vernier by any chance?

2dogs · Oct 8, 2007

.375 and 3/8 are the same.

Crofter · Oct 8, 2007

Jonsered2095 said:
Troll. .3669 to be exact [including lo pro] no such thing as .365 & .375

I think it was just a typo.

Have you got a vernier by any chance?

Ya caught me nappin' Troll!

SawTroll · Oct 9, 2007

Jonsered2095 said:
Troll. .3669 to be exact [including lo pro] no such thing as .365 & .375

I think it was just a typo.

Have you got a vernier by any chance?

I have posted several times earlier that all "3/8" chains most likely are .367, nice to see it confirmed!

.365 and .375 are just "names" to distinguish lo-pro from regular.

I have seen indications that .325 isn'r really .325" also, btw.......

What is a vernier?

Jonsered2095 · Oct 9, 2007

SawTroll said:
I have posted several times earlier that all "3/8" chains most likely are .367, nice to see it confirmed!

.365 and .375 are just "names" to distinguish lo-pro from regular.

Yes. I am really surprised that this is not common knowledge here at AS. Only a few seem to know or let on for some reason.

I have seen indications that .325 isn'r really .325" also, btw.......

Do tell..... maybe others have heard the same.

What is a vernier?

A Vernier scale is a type of Caliper or Micrometer used in engineering to measure precise tolerances, thicknesses, diameters, etc.

SawTroll · Oct 9, 2007

Jonsered2095 said:
....
A Vernier scale is a type of Caliper or Micrometer used in engineering to measure precise tolerances, thicknesses, diameters, etc.

I suspected that - I don't have one...

Are all chains created equal?

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