Where to purchase non-benzene, alkylate, fuel from California?

All:


Can you supply a specific source (phone number or URL) where I can purchase non-benzene gasoline, alkylate, fuel, any brand, local or internet or willing to ship, suitable for chain saws? I've spent hours trying to purchase, with no success.

No need to repost what has already been posted to prior threads, I've read them, I believe that read everything that comes up with a search for 'alkylate' and 'fuel.'


1. I've searched the forums & read carefully.

2. I've spent 2 hours with Google trying to buy any non-benzene fuel locally or online, with no luck. I see lots of info, but no place to purchase from California, USA.

3. There are no specific links, sites, company phone numbers, or any info that allows an English speaker in California to purchase alkylate, non-bezene, or suitable race gas, cart gas, aviation gas, Aspen brand, etc.

4. I have phoned many, and visited a few, chain saw dealers, Yardbird shops, race fuel dealers, dirt bike supply shops, hand power tool retailers, and Husky dealers near me in Californa, with no success in actually finding alkylate fuel that I can purchase.

5. I read that people in various European locales can readily purchase this, yet I find no European web site with English option that offers it, and not for my location.

6. No nitro[methane], no methanol, nothing that is worse to breathe than standard gasoline with its large fraction of benzene or which does not mix with premix oil well.

7. With or without premix oil, read Aspen 2T, 4T.

Aspen homepage

here is some reading from aspen site


http://www.aspen.se/Templates/start.asp?PN=104744

/Kristoffer

I am not sure if this is gonna help

Last summer I did a 2 gallon experiment using 100LL avgas obtained from local airport. Saws ran well, but due to the differences I had to adjust a bit richer on the carb. Avgas actually smells like real gasoline. Concerning benzene I think I saw >0.1% mentioned somewhere. I do not believe the power was any better (or worse) than the usual gas station slop. According to another 2 stroke site AVgas really isn't intended to be used in engines that turn at high RPM, but there is quite a collection of people that are running it in various high rpm vehicles. Motorcycles, snowmobiles, watercraft, etc.

However! one must realize that they call it "LL" meaning "low lead". This is leaded fuel designed to work in older engines. My way of thinking is that we used to run leaded fuel in our old saws at 16:1 oil mix. Clouds of smoke, and who knows what else spewing out the exhaust.

-pat

Feedback for SWE#Kipp's & Patrick62's postings.

SWE#Kipp & Patrick62:


SWE#Kipp: I checked the Aspen site before I posted. Others have posted it in prior threads. I wish that it were not so, but Aspen is in Sweden, and the Aspen site 'contacts' button leads to a list of contacts in countries only in Europe. There are no listings for the Americas or anywhere else. Maybe I should dial the telephone number listed and see what happens, on the off chance. I have sent an e'mail to [email protected]. Will report back if that leads to alkylate fuel for me.

Patrick62: Aviation fuels are available for purchase in California, of course, but all aviation fuels that I have been able to find benzene content data points or comments on indicate that it contains lots of benzene, known to the state of California to be a known human carcinogen, just as all gasoline sources in the United States that I am aware of do. The majority of gasoline is benzene, and approximately a quarter of all the gasoline and benzene that goes into the tank goes out the exhaust (unburned, 2 stroke blow-thru). If someone can supply of a specific souce for high fraction alkylated aviation fuels that would be possible for me to get, I would be very grateful.

Refineries appear to offer alkylates to industries in the US. There just does not seem to be a source of alkylate engine fuel here. Has not happened yet.


Michael.

Aspen

The "Aspen" 50:1 alkylate are sold "everywhere" here, and I see no reason to use any other fuel in my saws.
It is friendlier both to the user, the saw, and the environment in general than regular fuel mix.
Continue the search for a similar fuel, it is well worth it.....

MichaelWright said:

The majority of gasoline is benzene,

Click to expand...

Actually, I thought less than 1% of gasoline is benzene.

The majority of gasoline by weight or volume is benzene.

sawn_penn: When I searched this forum for 'alkylate' and 'fuel', I saw some postings stating or assuming that gasoline fuels were only a few percent benzene. This is incorrect. I'm not a petroleum engineer or gasoline expert, but it is apparent that gasoline is predominantly benzene or benzene type aromatic cyclic hydrocoarbons (diesel fuel is predominantly not, but rather approximately twice the molecular weight hydrocarbons, with more carbon). Gasoline is known to cause reproductive harm and cancer, and bezene is one of the major reasons why.

SawTroll: Thank you very much for your support. I figure, since Akylate is available, why not use it? It is apparently a matter of getting local or national blenders or importers going. I was surprised by some chidding comments from the my nearest Aurthorized Husqvarna dealers when I phoned them about this. Some were not interested in the less toxic alkylate fuel. One stated 'I've been running saws my entire life, and I'm not dead yet. But maybe I will be.' I gently responded by saying that hundreds of thousands of people die every year of cancer, and some of those of luekemia in particular, some fraction of those probably from benzene. And breathing it may be the worst way. Husqvarna's web site states that only the finest retailers are accepted. I'm in the San Francisco Bay Area region, with many large refineries here. The nearest authorized Husqvarna dealer is 378 miles away in Oregon, according to Husqvarna's web site. There are many retailers nearby that sell Husqvarna saws, but they are apparently not authorized dealers.

How much $$ you got??

Just for giggles I did a quick search and came up with this:

www.buyracegas.com

Holy Sheets!!

And I thought that 3 clams a gallon for auto gas was expensive.
Not even close..... This must be some really good stuff.
I am not sure how much benzene or what else is in there, but for the price it had all better burn. Plus the wheels off the back of the Mustang!

I will stick with plain ol auto gas, or maybe some 100LL.

-Pat :jawdrop:

MichaelWright said:

The majority of gasoline by weight or volume is benzene.
When I searched this forum for 'alkylate' and 'fuel', I saw some postings stating or assuming that gasoline fuels were only a few percent benzene. This is incorrect. I'm not a petroleum engineer or gasoline expert, but it is apparent that gasoline is predominantly benzene or benzene type aromatic cyclic hydrocoarbons (diesel fuel is predominantly not, but rather approximately twice the molecular weight hydrocarbons, with more carbon). Gasoline is known to cause reproductive harm and cancer, and bezene is one of the major reasons why.

Click to expand...

Benzene is considered to be a carcinogen. Consumption of benzene can also make you blind and sterile.

The majority of gasoline is not benzene. Not on this planet anyway.

Yes, gasoline contains other cyclic hydrocarbons. Attributing the harmful behavior of benzene to anything with a ring of six carbon atoms is nuts. Do you avoid contact with plastic packaging because of a cancer fear? Do you never wear clothing containing nylon because you might go blind?

The economy we live in is an gasoline-based one. Large amounts of energy come from gasoline. Just about everything seems to be made of plastic these days. Plastic is made from oil. The impact on human health from gasoline is exactly what you see in the general population today. Gas is handled and burnt everywhere. People breath the fumes in every day. I'm not saying that this is good for them, but everyone isn't blind, sterile, and cancerous.

How much does Aspen cost, SawTroll?

What do you pay for your Aspen, SawTroll? And what fraction of that is tax?

It makes up 1 to 2 percent of gasoline,

I went back to check on my facts. I was wrong. Benzene makes up 1 to 2 percent of gasoline. The majority of gasoline is short chain aromatic hydrocarbons other than Benzene. I apologize, Sawn_penn and everyone, for conveying falsehood regarding bezene content of gasoline. The goal or impetus of my post remains. See this link: http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/06039/651687.stm Read the article at this URL.

Sawn_penn, I do not fear nylon exposure. Each type of molecule is a separate issue regarding its biological effects. Also, people in the United States that got a particulr type of luekemia are winning class action lawsuits if they were exposed on a regular basis to benzene in their work place. (Generally they die fast, so it is the survivors that get the recompence.) This is because benzene's effects are now known better, precisely because people are commonly exposed to it in various ways. I've been around benzene plenty, but wish to not expose myself at times it may easily be reduced.

Michael,

Would wearing a respirator help minimize the exposure to benzene? I started wearing one a few yrs back hoping to minimize my exposure to a chemical in pre-mix that is a known cancer causer. Only thing I know for sure is that I no longer get headaches while sawing.

I started wearing one a few yrs back hoping to minimize my exposure to a chemical in pre-mix that is a known cancer causer

Click to expand...

What chemical would that be, Rusty?

What chemical would that be, Rusty?

Click to expand...

I don't know. You'd have to ask Stihl. And to correct myself, it's not pre-mix specifically but "engine exhaust". Sorry about that.

From Stihl:

WARNING! The engine exhaust from this product contains chemicals known to the state of California to cause cancer, birth defects and other reproductive harm.

Click to expand...

All righty, time for people to start poking fun now.

Thanks, Rusty. I was just wondering what you were refering to.

Respirators good, even better with alkylate fuel.

Rustyb:

I want to use the alkylate fuel and wear a respirator.

I can purchase many types of respirators here, so not posted issue.

What type of respirator do you use or recommend?

I very much dislike wearing the large full-face respirators that are available at the paint store. They reduce respiratory efficiency enough to be an issue for me. Lots of huffing and puffing. The elevation does not help either.

I prefer the disposable 3M activated carbon light weight with the soft rubber that seals around the chin and cheeks, as it's air volume is the smallest I've found, making the respiratory efficiency the best, keeping me more often in breath. But they have re-designed sans activated carbon.

My reason for avoiding the breathig of exhuast is both the benzene and also my reaction to a day breathing the exhaust. I get a little sick. The short story on my long term medical issue is that I have leaky sinus, where stuff more easily passes through mechanically more leaky mucous membranes into my blood than the average person.

Michael,

I don't have my respirator here in front of me but I know it's a standard $30-$40 3M model with a cartridge poking out from each cheek. I have seen the same model in numerous stores, including paint stores which, is where I purchased mine (originally purchased to re-do a fiberglass kayak).

It is the only respirator I have used with carbon cartridges so I don't feel qualified to recommend any. I can tell you though that it doesn't fit my face as good as I wish (have to fiddle often to keep the fumes out) and any thing more than a 5:00 shadow will mess with the seal.

Honestly, it's a pain in the butt but it's some thing I'm more than willing to deal with. Also, the saw emissions seem to fill up the carbon cartridges rather quickly and they're not cheap...about $17 a set if I recall.

I have tried several different disposable particulate only respirators (for sanding, sculpting, etc) and have had little luck finding one that fits my face well. But, that's probably just a trait of my face, I suppose.

There's a German guy on a carving forum I some times visit who advocates Aspen gas but like you, I had no luck finding where to obtain it. If you do find a source for this type of fuel, please post here or better yet, PM me through this forum.

In closing, I'm a bit disappointed there hasn't been any mocking. Usually, at least one person of the "I been saw'n 20 yrs" type will chime in saying "he ain't been kilt yet". C'mon, tell me those tough guys haven't turned in to sissy's like me and are protecting them selfs! All in good fun....

Aspen's e'mail reply. No Aspen 2T or 4T in US now.

All:


I had mentioned that I e'mailed Aspen at their contact-us e'mail address. Here is the reply:

Från: Sven Löfving
Skickat: den 3 mars 2006 14:52
Till: Päivi Gustavsson
Ämne: SV: Source of Aspen 4Tavailable to people in the United States?


Dear Michael,

Sorry, we do not yet sell Aspen 2t or Aspen 4t in US. Maybe in the future.

Regards, Sven Löfving

___________________________________

If I find any source of less toxic fuel, I'll post to this site, and e'mail those that asked.

Yes, a respirator using activated carbon will absorb and hold benzene vapor.

Hi Michael;

Well, you got much further than I did with the good folks at Aspen.

I have never recieved any reply from them.

Seems their stuff in this hemisphere is handled by Husqvarna, and Husqvarna
isn't paying any attention to the demand for this stuff. It's probably a real
can-o-worms for them. Here's what I think.

*If* the Aspen 2stroke fuel is half as good as claimed, then it's a genuinely cleaner
motor fuel, and as folks are starting to figure out, cleaner motor fuels bring with them
a lot of political and regulatory baggage.

So, since Husqvarna 2stroke engines are getting kinda finicky anyway, (and they
are, I own a bunch of 'em) And folks here in the US are used to being able
to burn just about anything, right up to and including last years cheap lawnmower
gas with some generic 2stroke oil, with maybe a touch of used motor oil tossed in.
Folks try this in a modern husky motor, and instant piston hole. "Works fine in
my homelite 1050". So, in my opinion, Husky starts to bring this Aspen 2stroke in,
and they'd almost have to tell folks to use it in their saws, and they are already
having a tough sell on using clean quality fuel with a good 2stoke oil already,
and since Husky is opening into the retail chain of Tractor Supply/Home Depot, etc,
(essentially conceeding the pro market to Stihl) they probably don't want the
headache of this fuel. That, coupled with whatever horror the US Government
is liable to subject them to for bringing in a motor fuel, lord, I can't hardly blame
them.

Now, I did find one outfit in North America that claimed to handle this
fuel. That's the Astechman Group http://www.astechman.com/

Maybe you can have better luck contacting them. I was hoping, that if they
have this stuff phyisically on the continent, it might be possible to actually
get it.

I've sent them, emails, called and left messages, no responses at all.

If you get ahold of them, please let us know.

--chipper