Permits for Redwoods in Parks ?? Recreational

Several weeks ago, I put together a page to stimulate thinking about wear & tear resulting from researchers in the redwoods - the largest and most ancient that is.

Today, I added a comment to the page, about recreational climbers, and whether permits should be offered to them, to climb the redwoods:

Climbing Redwoods - Canopy Trails

Anyhow, it's an idea I'm tossing into the arena of ideas. It's not something I'm promoting - the permit aspect that is.

At page bottom, is an additional idea about utilizing recreation climbers for research - like documenting the existing conditions of large tracts of redwood parks.

Honestly, if I were in charge of parks and redwood research, I would love to be able to use the assistance of 50, 100 or 200 recreational climbers for single events.

A small migration of climbers entering sections of the park, all supporting one another in small regions. All go in together, do the climb and mission, and all leave together.

M.D. Vaden said:

Today, I added a comment to the page, about recreational climbers, and whether permits should be offered to them, to climb the redwoods

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If there was permitted access for rec climbers in redwood national or state parks I'd rather see it in areas that are second growth. Personally I'm not interested in tromping around in the canopies of old-growth redwood in national parks. There must be way more second growth redwood forest in and out of national parks. Since I'm not a west coast climber I don't know what the top heights are for second growth redwoods but I imagine there are good numbers in the over 200 ft. range. I think a rec climber can enjoy a quality experience in trees of that magnitude and stay out of the old-growth redwood preserves.
-moss

moss said:

If there was permitted access for rec climbers in redwood national or state parks I'd rather see it in areas that are second growth. Personally I'm not interested in tromping around in the canopies of old-growth redwood in national parks. There must be way more second growth redwood forest in and out of national parks. Since I'm not a west coast climber I don't know what the top heights are for second growth redwoods but I imagine there are good numbers in the over 200 ft. range. I think a rec climber can enjoy a quality experience in trees of that magnitude and stay out of the old-growth redwood preserves.
-moss

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At the speed they grow, that's probably very true.

The more I get into these redwood forests, observe them, and review the research and recreation climbing, plus needs of the parks, more and more it seems like some opportunities are being missed or avoided that could be to everybody's advantage.

I guess that is why I gave up hot rodding around off road.

Even my mountain bike. It sure was fun though. Now I just stick to trashing people's yards. I guess that is why I do tree work.





35? If you say so





Its hard not to stomp it

Climbing redwoods

Hi, i'm lucky enough to live half the time, on the west coast, there are some big ass tree's, some of them spindly and redicoulously tall, others short and fat windblown, but i love them all. It's really great to find a redwood that can be climbed without spikes but it is somewhat of a rarity considered the tangles of branches that make rigging nearly imppossible. Either that or the first branch is so high up that you need a crossbow or bow and arrow with fishing line to rig it. IF you want to read more about climbing giant redwoods look up a guy named Steven Sillet, at Humboldt State University. There are some tree's that are allready rigged with rope's in the Redwood State Forest up near the oregon border. This is the home of the largest tree's in the world with taller tree's still being discovered. I believe the record is 371 ft. with the first branch at 270 feet. These tree's are extremely diverse with whole rainforest canopy's in there height's.
but in the mean time, i get a little shiver when i go look at a new job taking down Massive Tree's over 150ft which the oldtimer's used to straight up top with nothing but spikes and a pretzl knot. There are alot of huge eucalpttus, fir's, pines, and of course 2000 year old redwoods over powerlines. The thing about is those big ones up in the park are the last of there kind because everywhere else has been clear cut many times. Redwoods do grow fast but they logged the #### out of everything from 1865 to about 1920, then after the floods of 1964 they finaly realized they were doing more harm than good. Now they finally , finally went bankrupt after Charles Huruwitz, and the MAxxam corp. cut the #### out of everything in a last ditch effort to make off with billions. the pacific lumber company was recently awarded to the Mendicino redwood company along with the town of scotia, and they are going for a selective cut plan,from what ive seen there taking huge old growth's out of previously unaccesable areas by helicopter. it used to be one log per truck that's how massive these chunks were. anyway starting to ramble, but there is a really amazing history in the area that all woodcutters should look into. pretty epic stuf. both the old timer's and the tree's

hey MD

when are you going to have us all out climbing?? i plan on seeing these tree mountains someday and would love some help

The Giving Tree

Your all more than welcome to come out just hit me up and let me know i'll be your guide. People in the redwood region will do ANYTHING for you once you become their freind. same with me. By all means take a vacation out to humboldt county, bring your climbing gear, pay the extra 150 buck's for the ####### luggage and do it. Now I'm goign to get alitle off topic here but i believe the story should be told. And i hope many people from many differnt viewpoints will read these articles, foward them to everyone they know so i'll let all of you think whatever you want. I know alot of hardcore logger's ,redneck's hicks, think that there all just stinking hippies and would like to snuff em all. but the truth is things have been pretty messed up by zipperheads that never think about anything but being tough and saying eff it or whatever. the truth is you cant even buy redwood up here in humboldt where it should be plentiful . all the wood is goign to vegas, LA, to all the RICH PEOPLE that dont really care... what it cost..where it came...there just in there little crowded polluted boxes trying to get ahead ...(deep breath) It really has gotten to the point of ONE MAN MAKING A TON OF MONEY, SAYING EFF ALL OF YOU AND TOO BAD, I,ve been raise somewhat as a wild child but i have thinking about this huge problem we have. I'm not even quite sure how to solve the problem . But i think i could reference it to a book called The Giving Tree. this was a book i read as a child about a boy who go's to a tree and is hungry and the tree say's " My boy take an apple from my branches and eat it and grow and be happy. Later the boy is poor so the tree say's, "My boy take a axe and cut some of my branches as firewood so you can make money and be happy" And it goes along tlike this until the boy is an old man . And the tree is down to a stump and the tree say's sit down old man and rest your old bones and be happy. It practically brings tear's to my eye's to think of this story. and it's really starting to make sense. Be happy. Give yourself to people that deserve it. Curb the other's that will never be full. that's the end. I just wanted to share these story's with you all and i hope it spreads like a wild fire .

I dont know how to put it becasue it's never really one way or the other, so i guess it's a balance. life and death


My dad who's lived in stafford since 1982 got a lot of crap from our neighbors about having all kinds of beatniks ,hippies. ect over to the the house. (poured diesel fuel in our well which still comes up 10 years later, and we still have no water from the landslide, partialy to after the fact my dad's alittle bit of a slacker in gettign things done due to old age,smoked alot of dope, neighbor's still hate em, ect. o well. +1 for the pun. but in the end they saved at least 7500 acres of prime old growth which WE CAN GO CLIMB!!!! WHo want's to climb up a skinny fourth generation redwood and look out at clear cut's??? not me!!! this ******** charles hurowitz came in to humboldt, trippled the harvesting to make A LOT of money, and ditched all those hardworking logger's,forester's,millworker's, trucker's, and went straight bankrupt.
the story might seem a little hippy dippy at first but it's deep and full of grit.
enjoy and if you like it dont post here, send it to a buddy, it'll give you a new defintion of the word tree hugger, though i still clash with tree hugger's everynow and then at the bar due to prejudices of them and me

I"M NOT SAYING STOP CUTTING, JUST SAYING APPRECIATE IT





[/URL]http://www.albionmonitor.com/9807a/butterflyprofile.html

http://www.circleoflifefoundation.org/education/kids/butterflys_tale.htm

Appriceate playing god:greenchainsaw:

ClimbinArbor said:

when are you going to have us all out climbing?? i plan on seeing these tree mountains someday and would love some help

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I think Nick at the Buzz is one to connect with for the redwood climbs. He posted a bunch of photos a couple of months back.

Not sure if legit or not - but he seems to know how to find a tree that will hold a rope.

As far as the biggest - it's doubtful that they are worth the risk in parks. Biggest meaning the special named trees and groves. The odds of getting caught are fairly good, and there is a good chance of getting busted for a felony. A fair number of people have found these trees and revisit on a weekly or monthly basis to take photos. I think the wildlife protection laws are federal ones. So once caught and busted, someone becomes a felon, and also looses the right to own a gun, plus other consequences.

After reading about the tenacity of some groups out on the west coast, my guess is that the first tree worker who gets busted, will virtually be crucified to make an example out of them.

It's not just having the law after you, or getting put in prison for a while. But the other groups can tend to follow and chase you. The consequences just don't seem to exist at all when just driving or standing under a grove. It looks so peaceful.

lostcoastland said:

Redwoods do grow fast but they logged the #### out of everything from 1865 to about 1920, then after the floods of 1964 they finaly realized they were doing more harm than good. Now they finally , finally went bankrupt after Charles Huruwitz, and the MAxxam corp. cut the #### out of everything in a last ditch effort to make off with billions. the pacific lumber company was recently awarded to the Mendicino redwood company along with the town of scotia, and they are going for a selective cut plan,from what ive seen there taking huge old growth's out of previously unaccesable areas by helicopter. it used to be one log per truck that's how massive these chunks were.

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At least they saved Fern Gully from those bastids for now.
Also, are they still helicoptering out that OG now or is that stuff mostly in the past now? We still see those one log loads come into Eugene now and again. Always right as the sun is coming up. Frickin' sad, man.
It just doesn't make since. There is so much second a third growth that needs thinned, so much of the woods we've already destroyed and turned into straight-up plantations.
More than the OG itself, I wonder if they just want onto the land where the big trees stand. Once they clear cut it, it can be replanted. Goodbye ecosystem, hello mono-crop. eww.

We doan need no stinkeeng permits.

Oxman said:

We doan need no stinkeeng permits.

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Yeah ... Your attitude is noted.

Climbing without neccessary permits serves egos of a minority of climbers at the expense of future goals of many climbing legitimately.

Hey Lostcoast
was that South Rd or North Rd Stafford? My Bro lived on South Rd, atleast until the mud got his house. From what I know about some of the well water there, the diesel could have been an improvment.

small world huh, i live on the river side. i guess it's the north rd. the water my dad calls the underground eel , allthough the eel river look's mighty drinkable sometimes, except in summer when it get's that orangey thing going on. I have been told wonderous thing's about the stafford mt. spring but havent gotten any water yet due to the slide, and quarelling neighbors. mostly dads lack of people skill's. :deadhorse:

M.D. Vaden said:

redwood climbs. Not sure if legit or not - there is a good chance of getting busted for a felony. I think the wildlife protection laws are federal ones. So once caught and busted, someone becomes a felon, and also looses the right to own a gun, plus other consequences.

After reading about the tenacity of some groups out on the west coast, my guess is that the first tree worker who gets busted, will virtually be crucified to make an example out of them.

It's not just having the law after you, or getting put in prison for a while. But the other groups can tend to follow and chase you.

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The logic of getting from "not sure if legit", to "felony" sounds confused. 'Guessing' that a tree climber will be "followed, chased, and crucified" sounds like an idle threat.

An Olympic National Park ranger told me tree climbing is regarded as a recreational use by citizens, just like frisbee playing.

Oxman said:

An Olympic National Park ranger told me tree climbing is regarded as a recreational use by citizens, just like frisbee playing.

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Excellent.

I think Mario is talking about rec climbing permits for the more closely protected redwood national park lands. Yes?
-moss

moss said:

Excellent.

I think Mario is talking about rec climbing permits for the more closely protected redwood national park lands. Yes?
-moss

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Yes ...

opcorn:

May be on to something!

I'm new to this place, but when I saw this thread, I had to sign up.

I just saw ads for a reality show for "Heliloggers". I think it is on A&E. Anyway it proves that they are doing that.

I tend to climb trees for fun and to collect seeds in fall. Never even thought about permits, but the only place around here where that might be required is Cooks Forrest (200'+ virgin white pines in PA). Other than a few of my crazy winter camping friends, I don't know of any other people who have any interest in climbing trees as an adult. I think the mad rush of people climbing trees that some of you envision is over rated as most people are too scared and lazy even if they are curious. Most won't even carry the required gear any where that they can't drive up to.

This said, I have heard of Amazon touristy places having rigging set up for tourists to play in the tree tops like they see in rain forrest documentaries. Maybe a designated spot with permanent rigging set up for tourists would allow the general population visit the canopy and gain an appreciation for it and help promote the conservation of this resource.

Ziggy

Ziggy said:

...I think the mad rush of people climbing trees that some of you envision is over rated as most people are too scared and lazy even if they are curious. Most won't even carry the required gear any where that they can't drive up to.

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I think the issue is that if even a small number of rec climbers repeatedly visit some of the record height Coast Redwood trees, there will be soil compression in the root zone, destruction of ground cover and understory around the tree and damage to canopy epiphyte ecosystems in these trees. Some of the well visited tall redwoods in protected parks have been affected by repeat visits from tourists year in and year out so the worry is based on real data. It's the "love it to death" problem.

If you have the chance to visit the site of a group rec climb on any wild forest tree, after the climb you'll see flattened ground cover, all kinds of small branches and bark on the ground etc. It's easy to imagine that if this happened say once every two weeks for years, there would eventually be lasting effect on the tree and the immediate area surrounding the tree. If you project that scenario on three or four of the world's tallest trees in northern California, eventually there's going to be damage.
-moss

Ziggy said:

I think the mad rush of people climbing trees that some of you envision is over rated as most people are too scared and lazy even if they are curious.

Ziggy

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From seeing the habitats, and reading the research articles and reviewing photos, it's become apparent that it would only take ONE climber to cause a substantial problem.

There is expensive gear in the trees, often with an extensive network of lines.

Some of the experiments appear to be ongoing.

It's very realistic that one recreation climber could dislodge a data cable or sensor right in the middle of an experiment. Possibly costing the the completion of a long-term project.

That's not even getting into the affect on the tree's themselves.

Simply put, the public hires people who are in charge of the forest management. If that management permits and allows climbing - that should be fine. If not - then the recreational climbers don't own the parks.

I still suspect that there could be many more ways to get recreational climbers into old growth forests, but the politics of the situation is probably hindering it right now. As I wrote - if I were doing research, I'd try to recruit recreational climbers. By the dozens if possible.