Friction devices aloft

A couple interested guys from around the other side of the world to ask the direct questions, "Tree Machine.... what are you using up front to control friction?"

As little as possible.

[sez Trev] I guess a grigri or any device that could belay a person could be used to self belay a branch down up to a similar weight.

Yes, this is true, though I'd like to not discuss the aspect of abseiling. At last count I had tried 60-something devices. What I use for me rapelling and working a crown may change every couple days, or with a mood, or I had a dream last night of how some device could be used in a different way and I'll climb on that for a stint. Or whether I'm climbing SRT or on a doubled line. But if we were to specifically focus on the use of a saddle-attached friction piece that is used to lower limbs from aloft, we could have that discussion, because that's what the thread is about.

[sez Ian]"Can you please expand on these idea's relating to your set up... ie how the connection for rigging is made to your front saddle and what specific tools are used ( figure 8, karabina using munter hitch, grillion or other lowering devices etc ). I see your preference is to use 11 mm rope for lowering."

Actually, I vascillate between 11 mm and the 13 mm bull rope. The 11 mm I use because it was retired from climbing, shortened a few too many times to be of much use climbing, but with eyes spliced on each end, it functions all over the place as an accessory rope or aerial lowering line. I won't donate any of the other 11 mm's to lowering work because they're all at work supporting my monky butt. So to say that I prefer 11 mm for lowering, well, the only reason I started using 11 mm for lowering is I happened to have a 20 meter length of Velocity that wasn't getting used for climbing. It was more by accident than preference, however, I now use it regularly because every time I pull the 1/2" bull rope up into the tree it feels like lugging a lead anchor. To lower a limb from 60 feet up, you only need about 65 feet of rope (assuming you have a ground man there to unclip). To use 120 feet of half inch is double overkill and a half since we are not talking about rigging big weights, just 2-3X your weight, at most.

Anyway, 11 mm is lighter, functions perfectly well for light limbs and you can utilize a host of devices because just about everything made is for 11 mm. This opens you up to a world of really cool and expensive pieces. I prefer things that are less expensive, simplified, and boiled down to the least common denominator. It's gotta be easy and swift to employ, light, affordable and available.

There, does that answer all your questions?

With all this talk about rigging, I don't want you to get the impression that I rig all the time. I live in a densly populated area with lots of wires and structures and obstacles beneath so I do light rigging very frequently, probably almost daily, but these are just tricks in the bag. I'm like most of you. I just cut it and drop it whenever possible.


I have some short video clips that my helper dude took of my doing some aerial rigging and lowering of some slective limb removals over top of a slate-roofed, copper guttered home. This is where I feel most alive.


Anyway, that footage just needs some time for editing, mebbe tonight, some real action, real time lowering from an impressive height way out over the house. Yummmm.

For now, here's a clip of my preferred way of getting material on the ground, that which will jive with most of you.

Blank movie player for me. Censored? or just my dumb computer?
Trev

Try going to the Quicktime website and clicking on the free download. The free Quicktime will let you view Quicktime videos on the web.

Try Click this: Quicktime for the PC.


Then here's a short clip of the tree we'll be rigging forearm diameter limbs from (way out) over the house.

Let's get you dialled in, though. I don't want to disinclude any of the 6 of you who really give a care about this stuff, or the 26 others reading it for the pure entertainment.

Hay! Nice lawn dart. Lol. I like how you fast cut it. Thats the tip and slip cut? Where you just underscopre and then top cut it fast?

"There have been many time where a lowered limb gets hung and you have to rappell down and either dice it in place, wrestle it, or somehow release it. A handled device wouldn't leave you any options but to deal with it while it does a static hang, then go back up to lower it back down. I prefer to be able to lower the limb from wherever I'm standing, or hanging, regardless of where the friction device is."

Ok than, all the device needs would be a remote control

Chux said:

Ok than, all the device needs would be a remote control

Click to expand...

or the device needs to be attached to the front of your saddle.

Personally , I'm not real crazy about the idea of rigging off of MY saddle. I try to stay out of the rigging as much as possible , and that just seems to attach me to it . I am always open to learning new tricks and techniques though.

Rigging to your saddle can be as easy as clipping a biner to your sliding D, spreader snap or front ring(s). The point to this is less of controlling friction off your saddle and more about controlling and knowing exactly where your rope is when those critical moments are upon you. The friction is created over a limb or crotch and the passing through a slinged biner, or two, and the very final remaining amount of mass is controlled by hand, giving you very direct and accurate control of the limb's descent.

Hand belaying you should think of as a friction system where depending on a single piece should mebbe be thought of as just using a friction device.

I find a great deal of advantage in setting slings and passing the rope through them. First, it is very fast. I tend to sink these redirects one-handed and place the rope through one-handed. This isn't to show off. Rarely is anyone actually watching. The point is it's so easy, you can do, and un-do a sling one-handed, so complexity shouldn't be an excuse here.


The attached pic is a simple rig I did yesterday, limb removal over top of a sensitive Hosta/ perennial bed. The major friction came from the rope over top of the limb, secondary friction from a slinged biner placed directly below, and a second redirect adding it's level of friction, but more importantly routing the rope to where the climber is, which is in the proper work position, tied in twice and ready with an escape route should something whacky go on.


The friction in this system was sufficient that I could have beleayed the limb pinching the standing end of the rope between my boot and the tree's trunk. This is where I like my friction, where you have to walk your fingers under the rope to pass it along, almost neutral force at the hand. Once the limb is cut, if you have just a wee bit more friction than you need, reach over with one hand and release a biner.

Some limbs are small enough they don't need accessory slings, just one point of friction (the limb) and your belay hand. This is how I do it most of the time, though the rope almost ALWAYS passes freely through a biner on my saddle unless the rope is hanging right there.

big P.S. If you're not wearing climbing gloves of some sort, I really don't recommend hand-belaying. Reasons should be obvious.

Nice. i like krabs for changing the angle of line run; to open up windows, keeping lines from rubbing, increasing or decreasing friction on tree parts etc. sometimes adjsut per load; by just un clipping a krab from line so line is allowed now rub tree more, for more friction for heavier load. Or clip/unclip krab as needed to have less of a bark friction trail, so hauling rigging line back up is very easy, then preset krab immediately changes that to high friction for lowering.

Bending a line perpendicular to it's loading leverages higher line tension. If used to raise tension, then grab more purchase past friction hold to tighten line is called sweating the line. This is how Brion Toss de-scribes how ancient sailors for months aboard a ship without radio, electricity etc. raised sails etc. when the bollard handle was broken or lost, or they all would perish.

i use it to pretighten lines on loads, to sweat more purchase out of the line, and raise the starting line tension greatly. This greatly influences rigging potential, impacts, direction and control. Lots of times using 2 support points and a sweating pull in between to pretighten. A krab and sling, or 2 end to end is a nice remote sweating handle. If trying for horizontal sweep or other higher tension trix, might place remote sweater onto saddle after pretighten, before cutting, but have sweater relaxed. Then lean back just when she starts to fold; to immediately raise line tension and keep limb high, and pulling in proper direction. Usually this is all with ground control on rig line, but sometimes have line locked off next to me upstairs. The spread points of support also allow you to more appropriately balance the equal and opposite reactions over the mainstem/ trunk for better stability. Instead of both parts of the equal and opposite pulling on 1 side to leverage force and angle against support, instead of balancing the pulls and angles for less loading.

Sometimes, i have a Round Turn on a single support, and a remote sweat krab after first turn, allowing high friction lowering, after pretightening greatly. This handle also facilitates removal of the Round Turn. i'll set overhead, without climbing up there if i can by throwing rig line with krab as weight and place krab on after 1st turn is set, right before pulling 2nd up(but already thrown in). If it is close; i'll pull rig sweat point down with remote sweat line, place lanyard over and anchor end. to another sling. Then, have a 2/1 remote sweat to tighten, loosen lanyard, pull lanyard out. My 19' lanyard with sling on end to anchor gives about 10' reach to line for 2/1 X leveraged bend pretightening.


This Line Angle leverage Calculator Dave Spenscer that designed that one way pulley helped me with years ago. You can adjust the loads and angles yourself to see the potentials, and useful ranges.

Older Archive-Bent Line Leverage Applications (need to start another one with the newer stuffs; make animations etc.)

Dude, your genius..... it just makes me weep.

i don't know about all that...

i've started a new thread on just the pretensioning aspect that can be used as climber or growundie lowering; as i think it is mucho importance to the formulae of support and direction control.

You guys really know your stuff !
Thanks for sharing

Spidey knows his stuff. There's many hundreds of really talented arborists here, as well as chainsaw dudes who just blow my mind in the chainsaw forum. The crowd that runs in the nursury forum are exceedingly good at what they do. Their sharing is what makes this site run.

We all have something in life we do really well. Lowering limbs over houses and perrenial flowerbeds, by myself, from up in the tree is really my special talent. Sad that my life has risen to that as there's a very limited use outside of tree work for that sorta skill. You guys are the only group on the planet who could possibly have an interest in this. To all 27 of you,

In the last few days I've had apprentice dude picking up the video camera and shooting some clips. This week has had three major league pin oaks with lots of technical-over-the-house material. I directed Nick to where and when the camera should be on what because it's exclusively for youz cats. He may be shakey because he's a noob camera man.

As far as how I learned this stuff, again it was more by accident. My first tree job 14 years ago the boss was opening a tree care division as part of his landscape company. I applied for the job and he believed my line of and hired me. I learned very quickly that I was the tree care division. Me, a flatbed pickup, a Husky 44 and a pole pruner. The following year a tornado whipped through a neighborhood just north of me and I was a new business owner.

Never had a boss. Never knew a fellow climber until years later. Didn't ever have anyone teach me anything in the early years. For very intermittant periods I would have ground help, but for the most part, just a solo arborist who enjoyed pushing to the outer limits. One of you described me as the lost bastard arbo child, raised by wolves and finally coming out of the woods.

I now work in a 2-3 man team setting, but the aerial skills haven't really changed at all. I learned of slings about ten years ago and have tried so many different things so many different ways I can't count. But it all distills down to the steady-Eddie, day-to-day ways that I primarily use now. Refined and simplified, tested thousands of times so we can dig the nitty gritty detail out of it. This is the stuff I'll be showing you video of.

What kinda video are you hosting?
Do you smoke trees like I do.
Walmart will be selling my videos soon.
I already own the domain extremetree.com.
Ill shoow you soon how to lok like your falling asleep while pushing a 56 inch bar. lol

Your ittsy bittsy slings would frazzle at my bull bucking loads.

Tom Dunlap would you like to be co-producter of my loads..lol

whassup with dat, X? You sound like you've tipped and lit a few

RBtree be glad I'm not advertising in your neck of the woods aye
Id help raise the prices of ale fer sure.

Do you roll the trees before you smoke 'em?:biggrinbounce2: