Cutting your SRT line

canopyboy · Nov 12, 2009

Just read through the single/double TIP thread...

I've become addicted to using SRT for pruning. No need to isolate a branch, friction savers, etc. Quick and easy ascents. Easy to move around the tree, bring the tail end with you and dropping down wherever when you're done.

But a couple days ago I realized that you can forget about the downline, especially if it's tied straight down the backside of the tree. DdRT you have both sides of the rope generally in front of you.

I was tied in more than with my climb line, I rarely use a single TIP unless maybe with a handsaw. Was cutting the notch a bit on the backside to get it to swing away from the house as it came down and I felt it. After awhile you learn the feel when your saw is hitting something besides wood. I killed it and looked around a bit further than I had before starting the cut. Oops, 1/2 way through my climbline on the backside of the tree. Line was off the spar about 8", and I hit with the tip of the saw. End of the day, owner wanted me to go back up and take off one more branch. Completely forgot the line was there.

:monkey:

No harm, no foul, and now I have two ropes for the price of one. I don't think I'm giving up on SRT, but will be more cognizant of my downline in the future. Just a reminder for anyone out there starting to use SRT for working the tree.

jomoco · Nov 12, 2009

The ultimate single line technique is off a crane just like a spyder. All you need do is speak, and alladin's compound rope obeys. Line up, line down, extend boom, retract boom, boom up, boom down and finally, boom left, boom right.

Simply speak the command, and alladin can do all this and more, pressurized air, fresh clean breathing air, hot air for cold days, or cold air for hot days. All this and more could be your's to enjoy, except the TCIA and ISA are pathetically stuck in the 20th century mode of feeding unwary groundmen through whole tree chippers.

Are you a board certified master arborist leading the way into 21st century arboriculture?

Really?

jomoco

Treetom · Nov 12, 2009

canopyboy said:
Just read through the single/double TIP thread...

I've become addicted to using SRT for pruning. No need to isolate a branch, friction savers, etc. Quick and easy ascents. Easy to move around the tree, bring the tail end with you and dropping down wherever when you're done.

But a couple days ago I realized that you can forget about the downline, especially if it's tied straight down the backside of the tree. DdRT you have both sides of the rope generally in front of you.

I was tied in more than with my climb line, I rarely use a single TIP unless maybe with a handsaw. Was cutting the notch a bit on the backside to get it to swing away from the house as it came down and I felt it. After awhile you learn the feel when your saw is hitting something besides wood. I killed it and looked around a bit further than I had before starting the cut. Oops, 1/2 way through my climbline on the backside of the tree. Line was off the spar about 8", and I hit with the tip of the saw. End of the day, owner wanted me to go back up and take off one more branch. Completely forgot the line was there.

:monkey:

No harm, no foul, and now I have two ropes for the price of one. I don't think I'm giving up on SRT, but will be more cognizant of my downline in the future. Just a reminder for anyone out there starting to use SRT for working the tree.

Another little tidbit to file away in the back of my mind when climbing SRT. I always feared a ground man getting wild with a chainsaw at the base of the tree and hitting my climbing line. To alleviate that worry, I tie the end of my climbing line at the first limb or high on the trunk. And pull the tail up when the chipper is close to the base of the tree. Thanks for the post, canopyboy.

Tree Machine · Nov 12, 2009

Twin line climbing (DbRT) is identical to SRT except you are using the two parallel lines instead of the one. Both ends are on the ground. No anchoring to the base of the tree. No motion at the tie-in point, no need for cambium savers. 1:1 ascent as with SRT but twice the footlock friction. Ability to reset your rope wherever you wish and pull both ends up and to drop them back down to have them wherever you want. Ability to set as many redirects as you want and going over & around limbs, dropping down through forks with no performance (friction) penalty. Friction control is split 50:50 to each side. You DO have to trace the line back down in the path it went up so your lines are parallel, and you need dual ascenders to enable this version of doubled rope technique.

I love SRT also, but recently dropped a limb and it fell right between the rope and the tree, like TreeCo mentions, and about yanked my hips up into my guts. At that point I'm wanting to inspect the anchor and not wanting to trust someone else to do that. This happens very rarely, but like canopy not seeing the rope behind the stem, the possibility is there.

I use SRT, anchoring high up, as well as to the base. Which of the three rope techniques used depends what I'm in the mood for, which is influenced in part by the particular tree, height of tie-in and the acrobatics that are expected.

jomoco · Nov 12, 2009

Tree Machine said:
Twin line climbing (DbRT) is identical to SRT except you are using the two parallel lines instead of the one. Both ends are on the ground. No anchoring to the base of the tree.

It aint identical by a longshot, since one has all the load, while the other distributes the load onto two lines.

jomoco

Tree Machine · Nov 12, 2009

They're both 1:1 ascent, they both can use the same devices in the same way. Yes, twin line splits the load to each side and halves any bounce you might create and gives you twice as much 'grip' if you grip both lines.

I'm not saying they are identical in all respects, just from the practical standpoint.

Practically speaking, twin line is easier and offers more options and advantages than SRT, so clearly you are right. They're not identical. Just identical in a number of respects.

Tree Machine · Nov 12, 2009

You're unlikely to cut your twin line on the back side of the tree because both lines are in front of you, together.

Nailsbeats · Nov 12, 2009

SRT (tied back to the base) ascent is nice cause you don't need to isolate the TIP, with the twin lines you would.

jomoco · Nov 12, 2009

Gotcha TM!

I'm a little fascinated by single line ascent techniques myself. Particularly these new fangled two stroke powered ascendors like the wraptor GB is involved with at 2500 bucks a pop!

I'm workin on a clmber powered version of single rope ascent that I believe can beat the wraptor in a 100 foot up vertical race.

What I need here in San Diego is someone who owns a wraptor, and is willing to vid a race between the two systems.

If I win, I should be able to get 2500 bucks a pop for my system too, and claim being green as well.

I just need to reach the 100 feet mark in less than a minute right?

Can I get 5K a pop if I do it in 30 seconds?

jomoco

Tree Machine · Nov 12, 2009

I'm all ears on that, Jomoco.

Personally, I will take ease of ascent, security & safety, simplicity and economics over flat-out speed. I like to work on the way up. I know I can always go faster than what I'm going, but treecare is not a race. I prefer to not be out of breath or sweating just because of the ascent.

The times I feel the need to fly up a tree is when there's just one thing to do, like remove a single hanger. It's a rare tree when I have just one thing to do up there.

nails said:
SRT (tied back to the base) ascent is nice cause you don't need to isolate the TIP, with the twin lines you would.

Agreed. However, isolating the tie-in point is one of my favorite aspects of this profession. It's one of those little challenges that requires zero in the way of physical effort, just some delicate wrist action. I really enjoy doing it. If I can't swing the bag where I need it within a minute, though, I lose patience and drop the weight and dedicate myself to SRT for that tree.

It's nice to have the option to go either way, to decide in the moment and have it not really matter one way or the other. There's freedom in that.

Nailsbeats · Nov 12, 2009

Tree Machine said:
I'm all ears on that, Jomoco.

Personally, I will take ease of ascent, security & safety, simplicity and economics over flat-out speed. I like to work on the way up. I know I can always go faster than what I'm going, but treecare is not a race. I prefer to not be out of breath or sweating just because of the ascent.

The times I feel the need to fly up a tree is when there's just one thing to do, like remove a single hanger. It's a rare tree when I have just one thing to do up there.
Agreed. However, isolating the tie-in point is one of my favorite aspects of this profession. It's one of those little challenges that requires zero in the way of physical effort, just some delicate wrist action. I really enjoy doing it. If I can't swing the bag where I need it within a minute, though, I lose patience and drop the weight and dedicate myself to SRT for that tree.

It's nice to have the option to go either way, to decide in the moment and have it not really matter one way or the other. There's freedom in that.

Agreed again TM, it's all about having the option and not limiting yourself. Learn everything you can, try it, and apply it when needed.

UnityArborist · Nov 13, 2009

working on SRT not for me.

I am all for using SRT for ascent and then trasfiring over to DRT. It always seems like I put more effort trying to prune off a single line than it would take to just go all the way up and switch to DRT.

It is next to impossible to limb walk or lower on SRT with out a HUGE hassle. Plus working down a tree is is easier than up.

Don't get me wrong I use SRT to enter most trees, but I almost always switch over. The exception to my rule is raising or dead wooding a Doug Fir or another single spar conifer.

Tree Machine · Nov 13, 2009

UnityArborist said:
I am all for using SRT for ascent and then trasfiring over to DRT. It always seems like I put more effort trying to prune off a single line than it would take to just go all the way up and switch to DRT.

It is next to impossible to limb walk or lower on SRT with out a HUGE hassle.

There are literally hundreds of different ways to control friction. Whatever you're using sounds like it is not working for you. Working on the way up SHOULD be just as easy as working on the way down.

I 'sense' you are trying to do SRT with a friction hitch. That would explain everything.

lostcoastland · Nov 13, 2009

Srt'

Hey there canopyboy...Ya.. i always am wary making cuts on the spar that has the TIP. But thats part of the buisness..it's a LIFELINE remeber that!!! LIFE-LINE...live and learn...I too sometimes have minor issues with the slack getting caught...when setting the TIP at the beginning of a tree or group of trees i always anchor...double wrap around base timber hitch with tunnel back up..back feed all my line into a back pack and pull the slack up the tree..usually i climb redwoods so theres no easy way to throw a line up there( the secret :givebeer:

is a crossbow) but Yes you do need someone to untangle and check make sure you are tight with your anchor when you get up. Usually the homeowner is capable..i trust him and his wife they are cool...then you are spider man...i can do 5 or more tightly clustered redwoods from one TIP and there is ZERO friction like DRT...Once you try to DRT around a pine tree you will realize why people do it..sap..ect...also Gri-Gri's work a million times better and you actually can rappell about the tree throw a flip line around it and bust out the saw...really quick instead of fighting a knot and trying to get your whole rope to move up and around a sappy collar...the rope doesnt move...You do..which is one less thing to wear out..

UnityArborist · Nov 14, 2009

What works

Tree Machine said:
There are literally hundreds of different ways to control friction. Whatever you're using sounds like it is not working for you. Working on the way up SHOULD be just as easy as working on the way down.

I 'sense' you are trying to do SRT with a friction hitch. That would explain everything.

I have tried many types of SRT, two ascenders, frog man, and gri gri. The gri gri gives the best mobility.

If you have some other SRT methods that allow more mobility I would like to hear about it. I'm not sure what you are on about using a friction hitch though.

D Mc · Nov 14, 2009

UnityArborist said:
If you have some other SRT methods that allow more mobility I would like to hear about it.

If you are looking for versatility combined with simplicity and ruggedness, take a look at this tool.

http://www.thompsontreetools.com/product.html

To everybody: I don't want to hear any whining about pricing...it costs less than a week's worth of gas for a bucket truck.

Good tools are expensive...but they support our lives and livelihood.

Dave

SINGLE-JACK · Nov 14, 2009

UnityArborist said:
I have tried many types of SRT, two ascenders, frog man, and gri gri. The gri gri gives the best mobility.

If you have some other SRT methods that allow more mobility I would like to hear about it. I'm not sure what you are on about using a friction hitch though.

TM really has developed a pretty good system. There's even a very good article about it in Tree Care Industry Magazine (p10). It's a good read!!!

Tree Machine · Nov 14, 2009

SINGLE-JACK said:
TM really has developed a pretty good system. There's even a very good article about it in Tree Care Industry Magazine (p10). It's a good read!!!

Thanks for that, Single-Jack, but it's not a system. It's just ascent / work positioning. Also, not my creation. Mark Adams put it out there in 2007. The Belgian, Quercus, put it out there in 2008. I applied their work and and improved further. It's an evolutionary step, but its not the whole picture.

I don't think it applies to this thread.

p.s.

Also, it involves a piece of gear that does not currently exist, commercially.
That's why I followed the title with ; a Concept Device

After a full year of field-testing alongside devices of similar design, the article is the formal report I came up with. It was published in TCIA, rather than here in the forums. The premise is the ability to go single rope, doubled dynamic (traditional DdRT) or doubled static (twin line or DbRT) and I shared the advantages of choice and versatility in having any of those three rope methods to choose from all coming from the single device depending on which would be the best choice for that particular tree. Also, dually redundant safety features that act as onboard, innate backup that allows safe and secure downward adjustability for work-positioning and seamless use in all the up-down type of canopy work that Arborists run into.

It is about a device that allows unencumbered options for the climber, rather than (as it has always been) the climber being more boxed-in to 'a way' and accommodating his options to what his system will allow.

SINGLE-JACK · Nov 14, 2009

D Mc said:
If you are looking for versatility combined with simplicity and ruggedness, take a look at this tool.

http://www.thompsontreetools.com/product.html

To everybody: I don't want to hear any whining about pricing...it costs less than a week's worth of gas for a bucket truck.

Good tools are expensive...but they support our lives and livelihood.

Dave

Dave,
If you've got one of these, it would be great to read your review of it. Maybe in a new thread
Kinda looks susceptable to twigs, dirt, catching on a branch ...
Then there's the issue of rubbing aluminum oxide into your rope.

UNICENDER, $450 from WesSpur ... you're right, Dave, what's another $450??? :cheers:

Ddrt & SRT UNICENDER VIDEO

SINGLE-JACK · Nov 14, 2009

Tree Machine said:
Thanks for that, Single-Jack, but it's not a system. It's just ascent / work positioning. Also, not my creation. Mark Adams put it out there in 2007. The Belgian, Quercus, put it out there in 2008. I applied their work and and improved further. It's an evolutionary step, but its not the whole picture.

I don't think it applies to this thread.

Of course, you're right but all we do is evolutionary - still it's a good to know.

And, you're right about not applying to this thread but UnityArborist asked ...
APPOLOGIES TO CANOPYBOY!!!

Cutting your SRT line

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