Kong Double Ascender

Chucky · Nov 1, 2004

The Kong Double Ascender really looks like da bomb for footlocking into a tree. What's the best way to back it up with a friction hitch like a prusik or a klemheist? Put the hitch above the ascender (providing you can reach it) or below? If below, isn't it a major pain in the butt having to slide it up all the time?

Also, are there better hitches than the prusik or klemheist?

I know this has been discussed here before, but I'm still muddleheaded about it. Thanks.

Chuck

NickfromWI · Nov 2, 2004

Put the hitch above. If it's below, and the ascender slips, it will push the hitch down.

A prusik is fine. Others will work, too.

love
nick

TheTreeSpyder · Nov 2, 2004

i like trying stuff before i buy, see if it might werk for me; or at least a reasonable facsimile to proposed positioning etc.

Prolly not as smooth, but i did come up with this playing around. Kong claims a more ergonomic position, which might be part of the slant in handle. Sent this drawing around to a few, noone sent back danger warnings etc. But this is jsut playing around, experimental, see if ya like the positioning, come up with other observations. Trying something like this you have no understanding of, just cuz ya saw it on the internet ....(standard disclaimer/warning)

i think the Kong Double is a toothed cam; which some wouldn't like.

Tree Machine · Nov 2, 2004

skip

skip attachment, same as upcoming

Tree Machine · Nov 2, 2004

this works well

Here's a collage I put together last year in some thread I can't remember. In this instance I happened to be climbing SRT, but backing up the ascenders with dual lines is identical.

Also, I used a VT his time because I was playing with a new eye-eye tress cord I'd gotten from Nick from Wisconsin. Normally I will use a loop runner and just go with a three-wrap prussik.

jkrueger · Nov 2, 2004

Originally posted by TheTreeSpyder
i like trying stuff before i buy, see if it might werk for me; or at least a reasonable facsimile to proposed positioning etc.

Prolly not as smooth, but i did come up with this playing around. Kong claims a more ergonomic position, which might be part of the slant in handle. Sent this drawing around to a few, noone sent back danger warnings etc. But this is jsut playing around, experimental, see if ya like the positioning, come up with other observations. Trying something like this you have no understanding of, just cuz ya saw it on the internet ....(standard disclaimer/warning)

i think the Kong Double is a toothed cam; which some wouldn't like.

I like the simply apprach of testing, and I think the Kong is about ease of cliping in and out.

Don't know for sure about the 'tooth' issue. I have one arrieving today.

Jack

Tree Machine · Nov 2, 2004

EZ

CMI are toothed. Petzl are toothed, as are the Kongs. I have all three of the above. I have been using toothed ascenders for over ten years and have never had a problem. The teeth are pointed, but not sharp. The Kongs are my day to day steady Eddies. EZ to use, EZ to back up, EZ on, EZ off. I believe you'll like them, Jack.

Chuck, it is not a pain in the butt to push it up all the time. Keep the cord slightly loose, it adds very little friction. Over the thousands of times I have ascended with these, there has never been an instance where the ascender has failed and the hitch taken over. That is not to say the back up is unneeded. It is. It's there for insurance.

jkrueger · Nov 2, 2004

Re: EZ

Originally posted by Tree Machine
CMI are toothed. Petzl are toothed, as are the Kongs. I have all three of the above. I have been using toothed ascenders for over ten years and have never had a problem. The teeth are pointed, but not sharp. The Kongs are my day to day steady Eddies. EZ to use, EZ to back up, EZ on, EZ off. I believe you'll like them, Jack.

Chuck, it is not a pain in the butt to push it up all the time. Keep the cord slightly loose, it adds very little friction. Over the thousands of times I have ascended with these, there has never been an instance where the ascender has failed and the hitch taken over. That is not to say the back up is unneeded. It is. It's there for insurance.

Thanks, my Kong arrieved and I'm setting it up for tomorow's work. I've used loaners and I like the idea of setting it up to work off on the way up. I'm just using a CMI, and I know Mark C.and others use a larger friction pulley.

It would be nice to see how others have set it up.

Jack

BigJohn · Nov 2, 2004

That backup seems ok but what if you want to use it double. Personally for short hikes like 40 50 feet I like to double. I can go faster and its easier for me.

jkrueger · Nov 2, 2004

Originally posted by BigJohn
That backup seems ok but what if you want to use it double. Personally for short hikes like 40 50 feet I like to double. I can go faster and its easier for me.

what wronge with a prussic above on a double?

Jack

TheTreeSpyder · Nov 2, 2004

Would cams spread lines far enough to fail prusik around both?

TheTreeSpyder · Nov 2, 2004

Wow, great point, Thanks!

jkrueger · Nov 2, 2004

To back up a double rope how about using the "Rock Exotica Dualcender"? Ya, $99 from Sherrrill.

Put it below, and work directly off it with it connected to the Kong above.

I'll have to do off the the clock time tomorrow morn to find a good way to do thish without a lot of extras.

Jack
Jack

Chucky · Nov 2, 2004

Dan Said:

"I think that if one of the ascenders failed and one did not that the rope may still pass throught the prussic. I'm suggesting that a prussick or Vt may not hold on two ropes when one rope is moving and one rope is still."

That's interesting. I never thought of that. Jack mentioned backing it up with Rock Exotica Dualcender, which I never noticed before in Sherrill's catalogue. The Rock Exotica Dualcender is described in Sherrill's catalogue as being specifically "designed for use in the secured footlock technique in the doubled rope technique (DdRT)." I can't see how this device differs any as far as fall protection from the Kong Double Ascender, should one of them fail.

The KDA and RED in concert certainly would certainly provide more than adequate safety, but it seems to be piling up too much metal. I'd like to hear more on how a hitch performs on two ropes moving in opposite directions. I have a feeling -TM- has experimented with this dynamic. And thanks, everybody for the responses.

NickfromWI · Nov 2, 2004

I gotta set up a quick test when I get home to see if the prusik would grab the two rope when moving in opposite direction.

I DON'T like the idea of 2 ascenders. Seems excessive.

What about a prusik on each end of the rope. a smaller prusik. Could be 5/16th or 1/4" rope. This would work. But time consuming to put on/take off.

Hmmmm.

love
nick

Tree Machine · Nov 2, 2004

Originally posted by BigJohn
That backup seems ok but what if you want to use it double. Personally for short hikes like 40 50 feet I like to double.

Clarify 'double'. Traditional DbRT or DdRT? I'm assuming the latter, going up two parallel lines, footlocking up two parallel lines, both ends on the ground. Yes? Twice the speed of the former. Im also assuming you're talking about when you use dual ascenders? Yes?

NickfromWI · Nov 2, 2004

Originally posted by TreeCo
... But one side could be used for your climbing hitch once you are in position. Just take it off the double kong. ...

Very good time saving suggestion, Dan. Thanks!

love
nick

Tree Machine · Nov 2, 2004

Originally posted by TreeCo
I'm suggesting that a prussick or Vt may not hold on two ropes when one rope is moving and one rope is still.
Dan Nelson

That has always been the suggestion because, even though you may, with dedicated effort, create some force ratio coefficient scenario where a prussik or VT can be made to not work. BUT, practically speaking, these backups, even if they don't stop you fully 100%, do assure one major key thing

one of the two ropes can in no way escape you.

Given a worst case scenario of the cam of a backed-up ascender opening, and you dropping ~ 25 or 30 cm at most, you're gonna friggin grab the rope with your THIRD backup from dropping to earth, your ugly-gloved hands, and you can employ a fourth emergency backup system from dropping downward, your climbing boots, as in 'footlock'.

The key is not having the ropes in any way possibly able to get away from you. As long as your hitch is attached to the ascender, and the ascender doesn't leave you, a rapid, scary accidental descent is about as likely as as a gorilla flying out your butt.

glens · Nov 2, 2004

Be prepared to go for a ride.  That's what happened in my informal test a little while ago...

I reckon it would be a recoverable situation for someone quick on their feet, so to speak, and with enough time to react in any one of several ways.  I can't say as I'd like to wind up in the situation, though.

Good thought process, there, Dan!

Glen

Tree Machine · Nov 2, 2004

If my guess work above is true then TreeMachine is really not backed up like he thinks when he is climbing double rope.

Your guess work is just that, sir. He thinks he is backed up, and he is.

An easy test is to lock one of the cams open and see what happens.

Dang straight.

Hey Glen, why don't you come down and run the video camera for me.

FOR THE RECORD, although I do not condone this, I will use 1" tubular webbing sling in prussik fasion as my ascender backup. This will also work. Make sure the hitch stays dressed.

I had been using the below Nick from Wisconsin loop, but it recently tussled with my saw. Dang. That is one of the things chain brakes are for.

Kong Double Ascender

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