Tree Machine
Addicted to ArboristSite
That pic also an image for why I use wirecore flipline.
Kong Double Ascender
- Thread starter Chucky
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Tree Machine
Addicted to ArboristSite
Oh, no offense taken. You're cool.
It's not about 'being quick on your feet', Glen, It's about doing instictively what you would do. Grab the rope.
If you put a biner through the top of the ascenders, it becomes essentially impossible for the rope to exit the cam shell, even in the event that a cam both opened and jumped into the un-locked (open) position so that the spring doesn't return the cam face to the rope.
With the biner in there, that, to me is a backup in and of itself. The friction hitch abve is redundant, though necessary as an additional backup.
You see, a lot would have to go wrong, a simultaneous, multi-system malfunction during a grand mal seizure, for potential injury to ensue. Even hanging, unconscious with one side of the ascender malfunctioned, I think it would not drop you.
We must assume well-maintained gear, in good working order. Does not matter if the rope is wet or dry, though.
It's not about 'being quick on your feet', Glen, It's about doing instictively what you would do. Grab the rope.
If you put a biner through the top of the ascenders, it becomes essentially impossible for the rope to exit the cam shell, even in the event that a cam both opened and jumped into the un-locked (open) position so that the spring doesn't return the cam face to the rope.
With the biner in there, that, to me is a backup in and of itself. The friction hitch abve is redundant, though necessary as an additional backup.
You see, a lot would have to go wrong, a simultaneous, multi-system malfunction during a grand mal seizure, for potential injury to ensue. Even hanging, unconscious with one side of the ascender malfunctioned, I think it would not drop you.
We must assume well-maintained gear, in good working order. Does not matter if the rope is wet or dry, though.
NickfromWI
Addicted to ArboristSite
Tree Machine, that photo hurts me!
I hope it served you well during it's time of service
love
nick
I hope it served you well during it's time of service
love
nick
Chucky
ArboristSite Operative
Well, I guess, like Nick, I'll have to go out back with my CMIs and from 10' up do my own testing of a "failed" ascender for my own piece of mind.
If I drop like a stone: fail
If I float down: pass
I like the idea of ascending DdRT and not SRT because many of my jobs I now do I don't have a groundman to untie the tail of my secured lifeline. I realize I could running bowline a SRT to a limb, but that seems like extra work, too. And I guess I just like the FEEL of the DdRT much better, I suppose because I'm just used to it.
The way a double ascender can be gripped just seems so much easier and more efficient than two single ascenders.
If I drop like a stone: fail
If I float down: pass
I like the idea of ascending DdRT and not SRT because many of my jobs I now do I don't have a groundman to untie the tail of my secured lifeline. I realize I could running bowline a SRT to a limb, but that seems like extra work, too. And I guess I just like the FEEL of the DdRT much better, I suppose because I'm just used to it.
The way a double ascender can be gripped just seems so much easier and more efficient than two single ascenders.
Grabbing the rope, Jim, would be a primary response among the things that could be done quickly on one's feet. I'll come down and run the video camera for you; let me know where and when.
That lanyard wasn't the result of your new and improved 346 getting away from you, was it?
Glen
That lanyard wasn't the result of your new and improved 346 getting away from you, was it?
Glen
Tree Machine
Addicted to ArboristSite
No, the loop was a result of the saw before the power porting. I had my carb tweaked too... something. The idle was fluctuating, depending on the temp of the saw. It was just a little overzealous, let's say, the chain was spinning and i failed to use the chain brake. One of those avoidable things.
The 346XP, after mods, adjustment and an 058 73LP full chisel chain, geeeyod dang! What ABSOLUTE JOY. I have reached chainsaw nirvana.
The 346XP, after mods, adjustment and an 058 73LP full chisel chain, geeeyod dang! What ABSOLUTE JOY. I have reached chainsaw nirvana.
Tree Machine
Addicted to ArboristSite
All happy gear needs a home
Here's where they ride.
Here's where they ride.
Tree Machine
Addicted to ArboristSite
Oh, Dudes, here's an old picture, like 1991 or 92. This was my first set of Dual-handled. I was pretty proud of these.
i think the gear should be able to catch a passed out man, not dependant on quick action.
Spectra runners grip better for sling in friction hitch lacing, but i wonder how well the less dimension can be pushed up by cam device (in 1" runner too). i often wonder how much less heat the flat rope can take than the round.
Great Ingenuity TM.
Spectra runners grip better for sling in friction hitch lacing, but i wonder how well the less dimension can be pushed up by cam device (in 1" runner too). i often wonder how much less heat the flat rope can take than the round.
Great Ingenuity TM.
Tree Machine
Addicted to ArboristSite
I fully agree. This should be the acid test.
Great Ingenuity TM
Thanks, man. I've been waiting a lot of years to share this stuff.
This is a really, really important topic. What we've got going here is the veritable gateway to new-school climbing methods.
jkrueger
ArboristSite Guru
So, have we or have not a way to back up the Kong inorder to work off it on the way up?
If prussic on 2 ropes is NG, ...?
Jack
If prussic on 2 ropes is NG, ...?
Jack
Tree Machine
Addicted to ArboristSite
Tree Machine
Addicted to ArboristSite
today's setup
This is only the second biner I've found that will fit through the holes in the biner body. It's called Freino, by Petzl. Works well for this function, but the holes through the ascender do need to be filed so the unique shape of the biner may pass through.
Nick, I need an assortment of tress cords, a Tenex, shorty, an 18" (46 cm) 8 mm tecnora eye-eye tress, short Tenex 8 mm loop and a 10mm loopie. The guys want pictures, we'll take your spliceware to Hollywood.
This is only the second biner I've found that will fit through the holes in the biner body. It's called Freino, by Petzl. Works well for this function, but the holes through the ascender do need to be filed so the unique shape of the biner may pass through.
Nick, I need an assortment of tress cords, a Tenex, shorty, an 18" (46 cm) 8 mm tecnora eye-eye tress, short Tenex 8 mm loop and a 10mm loopie. The guys want pictures, we'll take your spliceware to Hollywood.
Tree Machine
Addicted to ArboristSite
Side view.
Tree Machine
Addicted to ArboristSite
Three wrap Prussik.
So grab a little slack with a footlock, flip up one of the cams, then let your weight back onto the ascenders.
What happens? Carefully tend the friction hitch and see if it holds any at all with relative movement between the ropes. (Hint: it didn't for me last night, but I only used the hitch I usually use on both ropes climbing without the mechanicals)
Glen
What happens? Carefully tend the friction hitch and see if it holds any at all with relative movement between the ropes. (Hint: it didn't for me last night, but I only used the hitch I usually use on both ropes climbing without the mechanicals)
Glen
Tree Machine
Addicted to ArboristSite
Certain 3 things must be assumed. 1, your hitch is done and dressed properly, 2. ascender operates normally, functions well and proper. 3. The rope will not possibly leave the ascender shell. This is because the caribiner atop the ascender will disaallow the possibility of the rope leaving the shell.
Glen describes a scene where a likely possible failure setting, that would just not happen in a real incident. Failure is probably not going to be a nice, soft slow, gentle process. It would very likely be sudden and would affect the way the hitch behaves. The way Glen suggests is a way that you can deliberately cause, and show, that a hitch won't grab if you feather it down the line.
Let's be doing the testing under real life conditions.
I see two ways in which an ascender can fail.
Whamming it into a limb while ascending up and past it (see pic). There is proper technique for going past a limb and I'll share what I know.
I actually can't think of how else the Kong Dual ascender could fail. The rope is backed up with the encasing caribiner, and DOUBLY backed up with a correctly dressed hitch above it. This is a real tight system.
I'll step up. Let's together figure out a standard. Let's be our own R and D lab. So far it's me and Nick from Wisconsin, on a mission to develop the most absolute, bombproof dual ascender backup system. A system boiled down to the least common denominator, simple, absolutely effective. Who else wants in on this experiment? Kruger?
This is what tree guys do for fun, eh?
Glen describes a scene where a likely possible failure setting, that would just not happen in a real incident. Failure is probably not going to be a nice, soft slow, gentle process. It would very likely be sudden and would affect the way the hitch behaves. The way Glen suggests is a way that you can deliberately cause, and show, that a hitch won't grab if you feather it down the line.
Let's be doing the testing under real life conditions.
I see two ways in which an ascender can fail.
Whamming it into a limb while ascending up and past it (see pic). There is proper technique for going past a limb and I'll share what I know.
I actually can't think of how else the Kong Dual ascender could fail. The rope is backed up with the encasing caribiner, and DOUBLY backed up with a correctly dressed hitch above it. This is a real tight system.
I'll step up. Let's together figure out a standard. Let's be our own R and D lab. So far it's me and Nick from Wisconsin, on a mission to develop the most absolute, bombproof dual ascender backup system. A system boiled down to the least common denominator, simple, absolutely effective. Who else wants in on this experiment? Kruger?
This is what tree guys do for fun, eh?
NickfromWI
Addicted to ArboristSite
TM- I could see a bit of brush/leaves getting caught in the teeth and jamming the cams open. That's a real danger.
How else could these cams fail?
love
nick
How else could these cams fail?
love
nick
Tree Machine
Addicted to ArboristSite
Cool Beans, Mister.
Here in this pic I removed the ascender and used only the backup. This day it was a VT I was having 100% absolute control over the friction. That companionship with world class gear is very liberating and allows you to have a little fun while you get done what you gotta get done.
Whoops, I just realized this pic is SRT, and wer're talking DdRT.
Here in this pic I removed the ascender and used only the backup. This day it was a VT I was having 100% absolute control over the friction. That companionship with world class gear is very liberating and allows you to have a little fun while you get done what you gotta get done.
Whoops, I just realized this pic is SRT, and wer're talking DdRT.
