Will You Join the NEWTS?

Guy Meilleur · Nov 12, 2004

The Network of Experimental Wound Treaters and Sealers (NEWTS) has been formed. Its mission is to draw together the experiences of field arborists who experimentally apply compounds not yet registered with the EPA or other governmental authority.

These arborists have seen untreated wounds causing serious defects. They have read Shigo's work, which concluded that the dressings available at the time didn't curtail decay. They believe that a compound may be developed through experimentation that in the future may be proven effective.
The network seeks to combine individual efforts in tree wound treating and sealing, with the ultimate goal of publishing results in a scientific journal.

So far we have reports of individuals applying hydrogen peroxide, bleach, botanical oils, silicone, beeswax, shellac and polyethylene glycol to tree wounds, in MA, NC, IN, ON and elsewhere. If you want to add to this list, please do.

Are you in?

alanarbor · Nov 12, 2004

I've been using some lac balsam...... but I don't belive that we will stop decay, only slow it. That has it's benefits, so I'm not counting it out.

Tree Machine · Nov 12, 2004

I'm in

That would be my take on it. A one-two punch; strong fungicide, followed by sealing it inside. Add to the product list a versatile industrial sealant-adhesive called ethicone.

NEWTS. Heh, heh.

xander9727 · Nov 12, 2004

I had a short discussion with Shigo on this after his speech at the TCI Expo last year (2003). He expressed that filling a cavity wouldn't stop decay. At the time I had contemplated using expandable foam but he felt that would create an environment suitable to bacteria. I never asked his opinion of using a sealant to aid in wound closure. While the decay may still occur under the sealant, wound closure may be accelerated therefore limiting decay. This later theory is my opinion. Does anyone have contact with Shigo and could ask him directly.

ORclimber · Nov 12, 2004

My brother in law sells anti-bacterial flooring that goes down as a liquid. It's used in wineries, prisons, nike towns...anywhere you don't want germs growing. Wonder if something like that would stick to a porous surface and not harm the tree?

Here's his preliminary response:
"I have macroseptic epoxies and sealers but they are bio-stats. They inhibit the future growth of microbes with specific additives. I think you need a bio-cide [kills on contact.]

I have some epoxy sealers that have solvents in them. Epoxy cures and solvent flashes off. As a microbiologist I am certain this would kill fungus and spores but it has never been specifically
tested for that."

Sterilize and seal in one step sounds good to me.

TheTreeSpyder · Nov 12, 2004

Treated trees would be NEWT-ered?

What would be neosporin for trees (better than dry air?)? What would mimic/incite the tree's chemical defense zone?

:alien:

Ax-man · Nov 12, 2004

I'm in too. For what ever insane reason that might be.

We haven't made any progress on this subject of stopping decay in trees since the first recorded attempts at tree surgery done in the gardens of ancient Babylon.

Just a wild thought, we seem to be treating the outward sings of decay, shouldn't we be trying to find something that can be introduced into the tree possible via the root system, where this miracle decay stopper can work the best, at the molecular level where the battleground is really happening where decay fungi are colonizing and consuming healthy wood tissue. Just a thought.

Larry

Tree Machine · Nov 12, 2004

Treated trees would be NEWT-ered?
Ha ha ha ha. Yer funny.What would be neosporin for trees

That would be Treeosporin.

AxeMan, I don't believe that a fungicide could be introduced through the root system. The reason is that in the CODIT model, the area being compartmentalized starts with the plumbing being shut off to the area.

Your thought are valued, your input important.

Tree Machine · Nov 12, 2004

That is where this whole biological chain reaction starts. I think we do care about the wood inside the compartment.

Ax-man · Nov 12, 2004

TreeMachine,

I will be the first to admit that I am not an expert on the subjuect of CODIT. I am getting into deep water here with you and Guy , Mike and the others.

You stated the plumbing is shut off to the compartmentalize area in the tree.

What if a fungicide were present in the wood before compartmentalation occured, if and when the tree comparmentalized the area being invaded wouldn't this become part of the CODIT process.

If and when the last wall was being breached the fungicide held in the compartment may serve as a deterrent to the invading pathogen, hopefully in theory helping the trees natural defense system.

Larry

Elmore · Nov 12, 2004

Lac Balsam

Originally posted by alanarbor
I've been using some lac balsam...... but I don't belive that we will stop decay, only slow it. That has it's benefits, so I'm not counting it out.

They used to make a "Lac Balsam" compound that had fungicidal properties but it was taken off the market. I use the other, hard to get, Lac Balsam on my small grafts. When I remove the root stock from a well healed union, I seal the cut. I also use a couple of other products but that is an entirely different subject than what you all are talking about. Bayer makes a sealing compound with fungicidal properties that may work for ya'll. It's called "Bacseal" but the only place that I know of it's use and availability is New Zealand. I called Bayer here in the states and they didn't know what I was talking about.

Tree Machine · Nov 12, 2004

If I'm understanding Ax correctly, you would introduce the systemic fungicide prior to pruning? It would be difficult to know how long it would take to translocate to the area, for it to be there when the pruning would take place.

Here's a verbatim statement that stood out and made me open my eyes wide:

"Wood-decaying fungi are not the pioneer invaders of wounds and often do not infect a wound for several years." Shigo, 1979 Tree Decay: An Expanded Concept. USDA Forest Serv. Agr. Inf. Bull. 419

It made me very sad when I read that. Like Nick, I want to believe that everything Dr. Shigo writes is gospel. I guess we're all human.

Nickrosis · Nov 13, 2004

Originally posted by Tree Machine
Here's a verbatim statement that stood out and made me open my eyes wide:

"Wood-decaying fungi are not the pioneer invaders of wounds and often do not infect a wound for several years." Shigo, 1979 Tree Decay: An Expanded Concept. USDA Forest Serv. Agr. Inf. Bull. 419

It made me very sad when I read that. Like Nick, I want to believe that everything Dr. Shigo writes is gospel. I guess we're all human.

Do you care to explain yourself? I appreciate you bringing me into this.

Guy Meilleur · Nov 13, 2004

Originally posted by Tree Machine
"Wood-decaying fungi are not the pioneer invaders of wounds and often do not infect a wound for several years." Shigo, 1979

Let's first bear in mind that this was written a quarter-century ago.

TM, I don't know where in line the decay fungi come onto a wound; I don't know if they're ever first to infect. Their spores may land and wait their turn while Penicillium and other mutualists do their thing, or arrive afterward. Do you have any evidence of decay fungi acting first?

Erik, as Founder of the NEWTS, you should know the purpose of this thread--to found NEWTS; and find like-minded experimenters. Great responses so far--as our Founder, Erik will no doubt be providing us with info on meetings, secret handshakes, colors, protocol, code of ethics, slogan, mascot, etc.

re Shigo and gospel, he said, "Trees must be touched to be understood. Education starts when you doubt something. Education occurs when you resolve your doubts." That's what the NEWTS are all about; resolving our doubts by touching trees.

He also siad, "If I can help you with 70%, or 90%, I know you will fill in the rest to serve your specific needs." He never pretended to be writing gospel; it is the non-doubters, most of whom do not regularly touch trees, who have elevated Cliff's-Notes versions of his work into gospel.

Guy Meilleur · Nov 13, 2004

Originally posted by netree
the usual arrogant-scientist types one may expect to find.

I've found overall that the degree of arrogance roughly corresponds to the degree of ignorance. The most dogmatic folks are ones who immobilize and cling to entrenched beliefs. They aren't comfortable with their level of understanding, so they don't want it challenged.

Erik I don't know what your experience has been, but I've found that the most respected scientists are also the ones who are able to handle questions the best. If they're approached with humility, they often respond in kind.

geofore · Nov 13, 2004

newts

Antiseptics and fungisides do not speak to the problem of the trees' proclivity to form ramshorns that curl under rather than spread out and over the wound. This has been talked about and is related to where to make the cut when removing a limb. Cut the branch collar or don't cut the branch collar. In trying to get the new growth to spread out over the wound you are trying to change a million years of evolution in tree behavior. You are not just trying to kill bacteria and fungi, you are not thinking about the hormonal changes needed to get the tree to react differently in a site specific area (wound) to stop it from building a ramshorn and instead spread over the area. It's not that you want to just kill infections and keep out bugs, you want the tree to spread new growth over the area that was wounded. The trees do this in tree time, not overnight. Ask what would speed this up? What would cause new growth to spread out instead of curling under? You are dealing with more than one problem, look at more than one problem. Step back and get a bigger picture of what you're dealing with. Your veiw is too narrow to see the bigger picture? Does the time of year you made the wound make a difference in the time it takes the tree to seal or become infected? Does the type of tree you are dealing with make a difference? Alot of unanswered questions not even asked. Step back and get a bigger picture.

Guy Meilleur · Nov 13, 2004

Re: Re: newts

Originally posted by Mike Maas
Ramshorns form when there is not solid wood to grab on to.
That's a good argument for cavity filling, to prevent them.
In that case, they are argueably the strongest wood configuration.
Yes, woundwood can be 40% stronger than regular wood.
Ramshorns are good!

Are they, when they meet each other and cause cracking? A New Tree Biology, p. 505 and 515.

And to those who adhere to some alleged
Shigovian "gospel" that wounds and cavities should not be messed with, from p. 516: "...you could take the water out, and remove the decayed wood without breaking the boundary, and fill the hole with some nonabrasive materials. Expandable foam... cover the hole with screening...Do not disrupt the callus about the wound."

So 20 years ago Shigo pointed out how cavities can be cleaned and why callus should slide over a wound, not roll into it. Sounds like filling may help train it to slide.

Nickrosis · Nov 14, 2004

Originally posted by Guy Meilleur
[Shigo] also siad, "If I can help you with 70%, or 90%, I know you will fill in the rest to serve your specific needs." He never pretended to be writing gospel; it is the non-doubters, most of whom do not regularly touch trees, who have elevated Cliff's-Notes versions of his work into gospel.

Everytime I've gone to a workshop, sometimes two per year, he's made a point of telling us to not believe him but to prove it to ourselves before believing it.

Guy Meilleur · Nov 14, 2004

Re: Re: Re: Re: newts

Originally posted by Mike Maas
[QUOTE Absolutely, Much better that the tree fail, long before it reaches the point where ramshorns bump each other.

All sarcasm aside, the attempted point was: Much better for the wound to close by callus sliding over something artificial than to rot like that.

Better yet of course to avoid putting a wound like that on the trunk, which leads us back to selective heading cuts, but I don't want to derail this thread; bad role model for Mr. Shimano.

"Would have needed a sh*tload of foam to fill this sucker in."

When there is a cavity too big to fill, what about covering the hole with screening, as Shigo suggested, so callus can slide over, while air and light continue to penetrate so conditions for rot are no worse.

What about it, NEWTS?

O and Erik, Mr. Founder, we're still looking for info on our organization--dues, protocol, mascot, you know...Let's have it!

Guy Meilleur · Nov 14, 2004

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: newts

Originally posted by Mike Maas
unless there is so much decay in that area that the pressure of the two columns causes a split,
How often does this happen?
It’s an amazing process if you think about it, not a crippling disease as Geofore alluded.

I've seen them work both ways, but I don't know how to predict when it can turn form tree-preserving to tree-destroying.

Will You Join the NEWTS?

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