DDM
Addicted to ArboristSite
I know your cannot use outboard oil in a saw.But can you use saw mix in a boat?
Oil question
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Stumper
One Man Band
Actually you can use outboard oil in your saw. Most of the TCW II and TCWIII Oils have always been labeled for aircooled use also. Are they the best oils for your saw? I think not but they won't cause any immediate failure. I actually used TCW II oils almost exclusively for 6 years. That was at the urging of my saw mechanic friend who claimed that they were better oils engineered to higher standards than air cooled (He so stated correctly since the TC(aircooled) standard hasn't been updated in the USA since the dark ages.) I had no lubrication problems running the outboard oils at 32/1 in my aircooled stuff.
Lakeside53
Stihl Wrenching
Stumper said:
I see saws that have been run on outboard motor oil of various types, and they are gummed up inside... hard to guess what ratio was used, but I bet it was the same as the boat! Maybe short term us won't cause much of a problem, but I won't risk it.
Stihl recently sent out a notice to the effect that you absolutely should not use the "dual rated" TCW III marine oils in their equipment at 50:1, and that only 50:1 using a Stihl or comparable brand was recommended. I'll try to find a copy of exactly what they were referring to and post it.
Probably. But why would you want to? What would be the advantage?
DDM
Addicted to ArboristSite
boboak said:
I was trying to get my 15hp outboard running last nite hadnt been started in about 3 yrs. Couldnt find any outboard oil.
No you can not. Using air cooled oil in a constant load, and throttle opening motor like a outboard will cause sulfated ash buildup in the combustion chamber and the sparkplug. This can cause the plug to stop firing or cause pre ignition.
Sure tcw3 outboard oils can be used in air cooled motors. Lawnboys and toro snowblowers need to use ashless type tcw3 oils as they are constant load, and speed motors. Chainsaws on the other hand are not and really need a low ash, air cooled type oil.
FWIW there are no dual rated tcw3 oils. Some TCW3 oils will pass the performance portion the old TC spec, but will not meet any of the latest and most relevent ceretifications for air cooled oils and will not meet the low ash requirment of TC.
I bought a business that had various pieces of equipment ran on outboard oils for years and each and every one was a mess internaly and several have died early deaths IMO.
To clarify one point. TCW# oils are not engineered to higher standards. Conversly air cooled oils aare also not. They are engineered for completly differant applications. In the early days of the TCW# spec many companies reccomended them for use in PWCS, snowmobiles, motor cycles, etc. that wa suntill the warranty claims came pooring in. Since then NO OEM specs tcw3 oils for the above mentioned applications.
Stumper
One Man Band
Ben, I think we could almost make an arguement that TC oils of a decade or 2 ago weren't engineeered at all- If it was miscible oil it could have a TC label slapped on it since there weren't even any approved test motors left in the '90s. FWIW, I realize that the new saws are being shipped with instructions to use JASO or ISO rated oils and that most Outboard oils don't meet those standards and aren't a great idea even in older saws.... But most ARE labeled for aircooled use, amd I did run them for several years in multiple engines with no failures so I'll stand by the"you can " statement and I certainly would not panic about a tankful of any 2 stroke oil going through any engine. As a matter of standard practice I am running the Mobil Racing 2T in my saws based upon YOUR reccommendation a few years ago.
Thats not really true. Though the test engines were long gone by then it was well known what type of formulations were superior for aircooled use.
No outboard oils will meet the Jaso FC standard, let alone the more stringent ISO EGD standard. TCW3 oils cant even cope with the need for increased detergancy in DFI engines hence Mercury's Optimax, and OMC'S xd-50,100 oils are not TCW3 certified. Simply put the chemistry constrainst imposed by TCW3 makes it impossable to have adequate detergancy for new technology marine engines, let along air cooled engines.
If you read the fine print most say something to the effct " for use in air cooled and liquid cooled engines where tcw3 oils are reccomended". Like I said previously some aircooled engines need tcw3 oils to operate properly so they are not lieing per se. They are misleadsing hwoever as tcw3 oils are not the correct oil for the majority of applications.
I wouldnt either and have used outboard oil in a pinch. Problems with oil seldom manifest themselves in the short term. However, long term use of water cooled oils has negative effects on OPE. This I have seen with my own eyes.
Lakeside53
Stihl Wrenching
This is what happens if you use crappy oil mix...
3 MS360's (2001 models) from one crew. I can't be sure it's outboard motor oil in this case, but this is exactly what happens in saws when run for a long time on outboard motor oil or just ordinary oil mix... Seen it way too often...
Yes, the crank is toast, as are the bearings.
Bearing removed on the flywheel side to show the crap is behind the bearing and packed against the seal.
3 MS360's (2001 models) from one crew. I can't be sure it's outboard motor oil in this case, but this is exactly what happens in saws when run for a long time on outboard motor oil or just ordinary oil mix... Seen it way too often...
Yes, the crank is toast, as are the bearings.
Bearing removed on the flywheel side to show the crap is behind the bearing and packed against the seal.
Max
ArboristSite Operative
Fantastic photos. A picture is worth a thousand words.
Thats pretty nasty, Lakeside. It mirrors what I have seen with OPE ran on outboard oil.
BTW is the stuff packed into the seal dirt/oil mix? I might also add that some of the deposit problems your seeing are probaly caused by your local gasoline. Is it per chance RFG?
BTW is the stuff packed into the seal dirt/oil mix? I might also add that some of the deposit problems your seeing are probaly caused by your local gasoline. Is it per chance RFG?
They must have used tar instead of oil Andy...
romeo
Addicted to ArboristSite
Outboard
From my experience, NO you can't. My 2 stroke boat, when I had it, hated saw mix. Caused the plugs to foul quickly. Probably something to getting water in the fuel?? It also didn't perform well. The boat liked the cheap valvoline stuff that looks like used motor oil. I would never put that in a saw. New boat- 350ci, no mo mix.
From my experience, NO you can't. My 2 stroke boat, when I had it, hated saw mix. Caused the plugs to foul quickly. Probably something to getting water in the fuel?? It also didn't perform well. The boat liked the cheap valvoline stuff that looks like used motor oil. I would never put that in a saw. New boat- 350ci, no mo mix.
KarlP
ArboristSite Operative
bwalker said:
If you are right, doesn't that mean you shouldn't use air cooled oil on a milling saw then?
Lakeside53
Stihl Wrenching
bwalker said:
It's hard to say. I'd guess that these guys used the cheapest gas they could find (87 octane R+M/2, 10% alcohol out here), probably filled up from the local farmers tank. The junk against the seal is not "dirt", but an oil/carbon sludge mix - slightly drier form of what was throughout the crankcases.
Yesterday I got to look inside an 044 that hadn't been particularly well cared for, but it has been run on decent gas and MX2T around 40:1 for a long time. Very slight staining on the exhaust side of the piston, but the rest of the engine was clean and normal. Exhaust port had a a slight buildup, but nothing abnormal.
While on this topic, and in answer to one of your older questions, I found out that Stihl's new full synthetic ("Ultra") is made for them by Castrol in Itally, which is why it's pricey. I asked if it was the same as the full synthetic Castrol sells locally, and the answer was no.. Haven't had any to try yet, but I have a gallon on order.
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Excellant question. Yes, the same thing will happen with a saw if it ioperated in a like manner. The differance is a saw isnt going to leave you stranded miles from shore...
In real life most saws are not used for milling exclusivly so it isnt a problem. It is also easily fixed by replacing the plug and cleaning the combustion chamber and piston dome if you should have problems. I have had to do this on Lawnboys and Toros.
I actually have a pic of these deposits some place. I will ty to dig em up.
Lakeside53
Stihl Wrenching
bwalker said:
I've been noticing more carbon buildup and piston "staining" than I like on my 066 when used for milling. The plug is definitely more fouled and it's easy to flood when starting. Some days it will get 10 tanks though it, 32 to 40:1 mixture.... (probably closer to 40:1) and the H set to be really rich... I'm going to switch to full synthetic to see how that works out. Definitely not going to use any of the usual marine oils though...
The above symptoms are probably caused by the over rich high speed mixture and not caused by oil or ratio.
How large are the logs your milling? If they are 24" and and are very long I would run MX2T/2R at 20:1 with premium fuel.
Milling is very tough on a saw.
The deposits I am reffering to are composed of Sulfated ash. Sulfated Ash refers to the by products of combusting the mettalic based detergent(usually calcium or magnesium sulfonates) additives that are present in all air cooled oils. TCW3/water cooeld oils do no have these additives. The reason the do not have these additives is because they buildup in the combustion chamber and the plugs of engines that are operated at constant RPM. The fluctuations in RPM and load of most aircooled engines doesnt allow this buildup to form. In contant load engines it can become a real problem leading to pre ignition and plug fouling.
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Lakeside53
Stihl Wrenching
bwalker said:
They are 20"+ and the saw is at max power for the entire tank except for a few "rest" periods while I let it (and me) cool off. 18-20 linear feet a tank is about what I get. Yes, full syn is in my future... I've been using the "low smoke" (50% synthetic) stihl oil, now relabled as "super".
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