2008 Fireline Fatality Report

[smokechase II]

This just came out:

http://www.nps.gov/fire/fire/fir_wil_fatality_investigation_dc.cfm

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Andrew Palmer was on basically his first shift as a wildland firefighter.

This was in Northern California in 2008.

The reason the report just came out is because of the difficulties putting together the report when the fire fighters refuse to answer questions.

I don't care for the protectionist attitude myself and may I suggest that there is the possibility that in some of these accidents there should be prosecution for Criminally Negligent Homicide.

Cover Yer Ass.

===========

Get a load of the stump.

Apparently these guys - neither will state who was cutting, were both B Cutters and were told by their boss/who wasn't there because he was off getting the engine repaired, not to do anything above their ___________.

These folks were all Park Service.

The Management on the fire was probably a mix of agencies.

-----------

I guess the rumor of the loosening of a tourniquet was not true.

{I promised to put this out over a year ago, sorry for the report delay.}

 

[smokechase II]

Wtf

The acronyms are tough.

You might need to keep a second screen open with an explanation nearby.

Naming Names isn't happening.

 

[Metals406]

Good "fast" government work on getting that kid Evaced.

The time it took them to get him off that hill is retarded. . . Everyone involved is to blame for his death. . . From the first two who under assessed the trauma, to the rest of the monkeys who made obvious miscommunications, and horrible decisions.

 

[pwoller]

Why were the people involved not cooperating with the investigators?

 

[Mikecutstrees]

Very sad, So many mistakes. Taking out just one or two mistakes and he would be still alive. Felling is dangerous. You always have to think about "What if"..... good to learn from..... My thoughts and prayers are with his family..... Mike

 

[smokechase II]

Afraid

"Why were the people involved not cooperating with the investigators?"

----------

There is a mentality in much of the wildland fire community that no one should be prosecuted.
I'm not aware of any prosecutions in the around 800 wildland fire fighter deaths in the 20th century.
They were apparently all acts of God.

However, this last decade there have been a couple instances where prosecution was getting close. In one case a settlement was arrived at just prior to court.
Finally.

========

However, time to lawyer up if your guilty.

 

[smokechase II]

It should be noted

Most of the time when someone gets a hangnail the helicopter is prompt.

Seriously, usually there are fairly good medical services provided on a priority considering the difficult locations involved.

 

[pwoller]

"Why were the people involved not cooperating with the investigators?"

----------

There is a mentality in much of the wildland fire community that no one should be prosecuted.
I'm not aware of any prosecutions in the around 800 wildland fire fighter deaths in the 20th century.
They were apparently all acts of God.

However, this last decade there have been a couple instances where prosecution was getting close. In one case a settlement was arrived at just prior to court.
Finally.

========

However, time to lawyer up if your guilty.

There just seems to be an overwelming ammount of mistakes made, did I read correctly that no one on the team was certified to cut trees that large? Did they even find out who cut the tree? If so wouldn't they be somewhat responsible for the accident?

 

[Gologit]

Good "fast" government work on getting that kid Evaced.

The time it took them to get him off that hill is retarded. . . Everyone involved is to blame for his death. . . From the first two who under assessed the trauma, to the rest of the monkeys who made obvious miscommunications, and horrible decisions.

Well said.

 

[newsawtooth]

"Why were the people involved not cooperating with the investigators?"

----------

"There is a mentality in much of the wildland fire community that no one should be prosecuted.
I'm not aware of any prosecutions in the around 800 wildland fire fighter deaths in the 20th century.
They were apparently all acts of God.

However, this last decade there have been a couple instances where prosecution was getting close. In one case a settlement was arrived at just prior to court.
Finally." Quote from above post


Not entirely true, one crewboss was convicted for making false statements in connection with the Thirty Mile investigation. Not to mention countless civil suits that have been settled and are pending. Prosecution will not make firefighters more safe. Prosecutorial investigations serve to stifle any real evaluation of an accident. Why should anyone involved with an accident cooperate with investigators if their statements can be used against them? The take home lesson here is that incidents require more developed medical plans and more assistance from overhead in camp who's job is to facilitate evacuations. Structure firefighters die at a greater rate, rarely do we hear about prosecutions involving those deaths. It is a dangerous job, we should learn from our mistakes not prosecute those involved in this dangerous and unforgiving task.

 

[pdqdl]

In case you didn't read the report, the poor fellow got hit by a falling spar, and bled to death from a broken leg. It took the medic on site an hour after the initial report of injury to take off the injured guy's chaps and discover that he was bleeding to death.

I think that much bleeding would have been pretty obvious from the beginning. I suspect that they were doing the modern medical practice of not disturbing the injured person so that they didn't get sued.

What a pity. He would probably have been saved if they just took off their belt and twisted a tourniquet on with a nearby stick. Don't you just know that everybody thought they were doing the right thing from the very beginning.

 

[smokechase II]

You are totally wrong

"Not entirely true, one crewboss was convicted for making false statements in connection with the Thirty Mile investigation. Not to mention countless civil suits that have been settled and are pending. Prosecution will not make firefighters more safe. Prosecutorial investigations serve to stifle any real evaluation of an accident. Why should anyone involved with an accident cooperate with investigators if their statements can be used against them? The take home lesson here is that incidents require more developed medical plans and more assistance from overhead in camp who's job is to facilitate evacuations. Structure firefighters die at a greater rate, rarely do we hear about prosecutions involving those deaths. It is a dangerous job, we should learn from our mistakes not prosecute those involved in this dangerous and unforgiving task."

1st item:

I stand by my comment on the 20th century. 30-mile was not in the 20 th century.

Secondly;
Prosecution is the first and most important step toward making the fireline safer. We all must be held accountable for our actions.

The big take home lesson here is that when firefighters lawyer up and refuse to answer who fell the tree fire both. Then if others will not testify who cut the tree fire them.

Dangerous job is just a cover.
"Structure firefighters die at a greater rate, rarely do we hear about prosecutions involving those deaths." That's why you hear so many structural fire fighters complaining about lack of prosecutions, but really great funerals.

=========

Somebody screws up and kills someone else = they need to do the time. Put them on a prison inmate fire crew - what the heck.

 

[smokechase II]

The guys knew

"Don't you just know that everybody thought they were doing the right thing from the very beginning."

=======

The guys who cut the tree knew that they were not Certified for that level of falling. It is known as sport falling.

They knew they were not doing the right thing. They caused the injury that killed their co-worker.

Sleep well, bastards!

=======

The medical care deserves a review in the courts.

 

[newsawtooth]

I read the report. I worked in Fire and Aviation for the USFS for 10 years and in emergency medicine. Having been involved in investigations I understand how clear most everything is in retrospect. Prosecuting people will hinder future investigations and hamstring our ability to learn from these accidents. He may have survived his injury if he had been evacuated. Most incidents have established procedures for evacuating the injured. The situation was made more difficult by the fact that Paramedics did not reach the scene until nearly an hour after the accident. The coroner stated that a tourniquet would not have made a difference, it can be surmised that a severed femoral artery may have retreated into the victims pelvis and the damage from blunt force trauma was too severe for on site management. In the future, how should responders react in order to facilitate a timely evacuation to a trauma center? That is the question I am left with.

 

[newsawtooth]

"Don't you just know that everybody thought they were doing the right thing from the very beginning."

=======

The guys who cut the tree knew that they were not Certified for that level of falling. It is known as sport falling.

They knew they were not doing the right thing. They caused the injury that killed their co-worker.

Sleep well, bastards!

=======

The medical care deserves a review in the courts.

It is also quite possible that the deceased was cutting the tree.

 

[pwoller]

So whats the point of the regulations? Just rules that are there if you want to follow them. Thats effective.

 

[superfire]

"Don't you just know that everybody thought they were doing the right thing from the very beginning."

=======

The guys who cut the tree knew that they were not Certified for that level of falling. It is known as sport falling.

They knew they were not doing the right thing. They caused the injury that killed their co-worker.

Sleep well, bastards!

=======

The medical care deserves a review in the courts.

i agree with you. the ic should have had better control of the crews. one thing i know for damn sure the medics first on scene :taped::taped:up royaly. if they had request a ambulance for transport to nearest hospital this poor kid would still be with us this is one reason i think fire fighters should not be allowed to fall trees on a fire line. the only people on a fire that should drop trees should be highly train for that job only nothing else. i know from personal experience that firefighters can not cut trees that big. trees bigger then 24" dbh should be left to professional loggers, like Northwest Timber Fallers. fire fighting and tree felling should be kept as separate operation. i hope like hell that there is some arsez being sued for f##ing up the command structure and the murder of a fire fighter.



:censored:

 

[pdqdl]

"Don't you just know that everybody thought they were doing the right thing from the very beginning."

=======

The guys who cut the tree knew that they were not Certified for that level of falling. It is known as sport falling.

They knew they were not doing the right thing. They caused the injury that killed their co-worker.

Sleep well, bastards!

=======

The medical care deserves a review in the courts.

Ummm....I was referring to the events after he got hurt.

 

[smokechase II]

"........i think fire fighters should not be allowed to fall trees on a fire line. the only people on a fire that should drop trees should be highly train for that job only nothing else..........."

=========

That would not be possible.

People forget how remote parts of the Western US are.
Where the Smokejumpers go.

I did that job for over 20 years.

What are you going to do?
Wait for the loggers to hike in?
Cut a helispot (Not always an option - but a thought) Oh yeah, can't do that. Got to be a faller to cut.

There are zillions of fires - most are small - but still have a burning tree or two.

There are small numbers of cutters anymore. Real cutters.

==========

BTW:
There still is no training/testing/journeyman/certification system for fallers in the US.

 

[smokechase II]

Look

The problem is:

When someone screws up bad enough to contribute to the death of a co-worker, they should be fired.

Without that level of supervision. No chance at getting better.