A college educaton vs. experiance

[Froggy]

You guys probably have figured out that I like to post things that involve everyones oppenion. So here it is. I was thinking the other night why do people go to college to study for four years. When you could be climbing for four years and be further ahead then someone right out of the books. The consept of going to school is good for those who can get along with books, but while you're at school you should work for a well known tree company to gain experiance as well. I know that people who go to school learn a lot about the field they study. I think experiance could out way school by a mile. As long as you read books like Tree Climbers Companion and other well known books for our industry and attend seminars. So my point is, can't someone learn just as much in the field as he or she could learn in a classroom? This is just for oppenions i hope I don't stur up bad carma. Thanks, BB Climb hard and love every min. of it.

 

[NickfromWI]

However...

Think beyond treework. If you are doing treework 5/6 days a week, that's all you know, other than a few other interests you may have.
For most that go to college, there are many other exciting areas to learn about. That way, at the end of four years, a person who spent the past four years doing tree work will be better prepared for tree work, while the person who spent the four years at college will be better prepared for life.

NOTE: I am one of these "college kids" many of my co-workers hate. They are comforted a bit when they find out that I didn't even study "tree-stuff" while in college! Everything I know about tree work I learned the same way they did....good 'ol experience!

love
nick

 

[TREETX]

Hey froggy dude -

Maybe because it is tree CARE and not tree CLIMBING.

Maybe because a university bachelor's degree is the equivalent of a highschool diploma 20 yrs ago.

Maybe because a degree shows you are teachable/trainable.

Maybe so you can spell experience?

Shigo has it and so do you, YOU HAVE TO TOUCH TREES TO KNOW TREES. Aka - get experience.

When I started fresh outta the Uni, everyone ragged on me about being golden boy because I made more than the rest of the crew or ragged on me about being big word man because I used "epicormic sprouts" instead of "suckers". Suckers are names for lollipops or "working girls"


It gets your foot in the door when applying. Call and ask if a company is hiring a climber and tell them you are "rilly good" - you get a lot of "No" answers. Not the same when you say, I am a degreed forester, ISA certified arborist and accomplished climber - are you hiring?? You get a lot of "yes" answers.

You learn a lot of academia book minutia about trees and tree biology in university as well as many basic core classes. That is not what means the most to an employer or customer for that matter. A college degree just shows a certain level of sticktuativeness. That you can start something, stick with it for 4 or 5 years and finish it. They have an employee that is more apt to be able to handle responsibility with less potential for turnover or generally flaking out.

It gives you a lot of ethos and credibility when discussing problems with a client. Better than "well you need to do this here cuz its good fer them thar trees"

If you don't get a degree, you need to get a certification of some kind to differentiate yourself. Explaining how good you are at climbing and rigging means little to most clients and you will certainly lose their interest in explaining the minutia of what makes a "good" climber/pruner/rigger.

If nothing else, you go to college for 4 years so you can answer questions like this on your own without relying on a message board.

 

[TREETX]

I forgot to add

So you have other options to make a living than tree work. It is obvious to others then that you do it because it is what you are good at and what you love but not because it is the only thing you can do.

It blows some customers away when I tell them that I used to work as an analytical chemist and have done consulting work for Pfizer, Oxychem, Eli Lilly, and Abbott.

 

[treeman82]

I was going to add that from what I have noticed, a lot of people who have gone to college to get degrees in this business.. they go into consulting later on down the road.

 

[TREETX]

I hope I didn't imply that education makes up for a lack of experience.

I think the main prob with the system is that it gears all kids for college when college is not for them Then they are left without a trade. Don't give me crap about a highschool shop class. I mean a real trade with some kind of REAL cert. Tree work lacks this but at least the ISA cert is something.

As you said, a degree is not bad since today a highschool diploma doesn't even guarantee literacy.

 

[crosscut tree]

sheesh college is a bunch of nonscense to us well experianced uneducated types lol .actually true to my life anyway. growing trees for citrus first 24. removing and pruning in the last 15 years i looked at many courses not even one of them held any interest at all for me at untill lately. when my bones seem to creak a bit more lately. and it takes that extra cup of coffee to get going .younger climbers taking weeks off. and begging to run the bucket for awhile have me thinking hmm.... well i thought about it again and still not for me. just not my style at all but for some i have no doubt it is the only way to go ive learned a lot from the school of hard knocks learned my lessons well too. but one of my lessons was knowledge is power and thats nothing to take lightlly or make light of someone who uses it to there advantage. to each there own just remember once all your youthfull energy goes better have gained enough experiance to live off your lessons.

 

[Rob Murphy]

Education or expirence?
Get both.

 

[trees4life]

From what I've seen, anyone with the time & money can get a degree. It's how you apply your knowledge. I know some people that have the degree, but do not function in the industry as well as those that have learned on the job. Much depends on the instructor (in class or on the job), how motivated one is to learn, and be open minded enough to new or different ideas.

If only there wasn't so much dissention between the two different types of workers. Many with experience feel they are superior, while those with degrees feel they are. Why can't we all work together and share knowledge and ideas? We all know there are different techniques out there that work. Some work better with one method, while others prefer something new. It doesn't make either method wrong, just different.

 

[TREETX]

How motivated one is to learn??? If they won't apply for college or a trade school and opt for shoving brush in a chipper, how motivated is that?

Anyone with time and money can get a degree. Yeah, sure buddy. Make excuses. Anyone who is willing to bet on themself can get a college loan. Scoring over a 1200 on the SAT is another thing. With the exception of being a teen parent, I can't see why time would be a problem.

Rob Murphy had it right. Both can't make up for that. Those that are too heavy in the academia end have problems of their own. I can think of many a Phd that is too disconnected with the real world. You need both.

How can you measure or quantify experience?? In years?? Make me laugh!! I can think of many a climber that claims 5 years experience when it is clear they have 1 year of experience 5 times.

I feel pretty strong about this because sometimes people don't "get" this profession. Don't get that I love it, that I love climbing too. I get tired of the "why did you get a degree to do a blue collar redneck w/a pick up truck job?"

Our profession is an honorable one and no, it does not require a degree but it certainly helps.

The military teaches some fine trades and lessons also.


edited fer spellin'

 

[heartland]

This is a really good discussion. My opinion on this matter is that having BOTH is better than having one or the other. If for no other reason, you are more diverse and have more options open to you.

I'm coming into Arboriculture late in life. I already have an established software engineering career. My challenges are twofold: One, I need experience. Two, I need more education. In hindsight, an approach that offered academia and OJT would have been ideal for me. Nevertheless, it would have been nice to figure all this out while still a teenager, but that is life.

Some of you may know about Peter Jenkins. Here is an article from his website that is an interesting read.

While the article does not come right out and say it, you can sense that there is a huge demand not only for qualified arborists who are skilled at climbing/rigging/etc... but also for arborists who are knowledgeable about the industry. Yes, you can get knowledge via experience - but there are other ways the expedite the process: i.e., college, trade schools, cert programs, etc...

And when it comes down to brass tacks: isn't it better to have knowledge sooner vs. later

When balanced with good personal skills, knowledge that can be applied in the workforce means more $$ where I come from.

 

[trees4life]

Treetx

I'm sure I must be getting the wrong impression of who you are & what you are about, but your response sounds arrogant. Time? I couldn't afford college or university & starting working full time when I was 18. Once you get married and have all the financial responsiblities, who the heck can afford to quit work and go back to school? How do bills get paid? I supported my husband going to school part time so he could get a degree. Some people are fortunate in that they have family that can help. Many of us were/are not so fortunate. I have taken some university courses, but am not able to get any sort of degree in this field through part time studies.

Don't make it sound like having a degree makes you better than those of us that don't. Sure, it's great to have, but it doesn't necessarily make you a better person.

You are in a position to coach and teach people in our profession that don't have the opportunities you've had. I hope you share your knowledge with those you work with so you can enrich the profession, and not just lord your degree over others.

 

[Reed]

I have to defend TreeTex a bit here - I know him as he's been out to visit the ranch a few times.

I didn't feel he came off as a prima-donna in his post, rather a humble observation of the working class reality within tree care businesses - true, he suggests an understanding of elements beyond climbing and rigging, necessary in this day and age of specialization, but he also hasn't actually applied his field of study (forestry) to the demands of the daily requirements within our vocation.

He impressed me as a quick learner - a climber who used an inadquate saddle with old technique until his inert curiosity led him to more appropriate equipment and modern styles - he's gone overseas to work and absorbed perspective separate from domestic standards, and has the will and ability to "sweat it out" with the hardest of hard core workers, leading by example. His main point (I felt) in his post was committment and determination, illustrated for only an example by four or more years of study, or staying on course. Focused.

I know he's passed on opportunities for the quick buck - he could've stayed in academia working with the premier salesman of the chemical industry but he elected to ply his curiosity and go work the hard stuff on his own, with no overt help from above. His working standards are high, his treatment of workers fair, and his quest for a better way is never ending - as many on this sight do just by checking on this site often.

To meet him one would never guess the academia background, he promotes reality as one who knows sweat and tears, can drink beer with the best of us, and always shows a twinkle in his eye for a better way, whether by closed-off facts of academic absolutes or by trial and error - the working person's educational background.

I do believe he's maintained one point well, and perhaps the reaction to his post is because - he's a pusher for a person who floats and doesn't committ. He doesn't find excuses in half-ways or sort-of's. To that I feel he's more of a perfectionist as versus a purist in the sense of class.

He is interested in furthering appropriate tree care - in spite of his education. We need more like him.

 

[TREETX]

Hey OW, when I die can you write my obituary and eulogy??

I use my education as a foundation and a box to think outside of.

Trees4life. Sorry about any assumptions about your life or situation/values. I just hate this BS that only rich kids with time go to college. College loans are handed out like credit cards now. All you need is a pulse and a debt threshold.

I learned that beer drinkin' stuff in college too.

 

[mquinn]

degree or not? in reality, it depends upon where you are going to be doing the work, and for whom. some people will be awed by scientific terminology, and some people will be put off by it. some people will be wise enough to recognize a knowledgeable person without seeing a piece of paper - others won't believe it unless they see the badge. the advantage to a degree is that you have the choice to use it or not - without the education, you're limited to the type of customer who doesn't care.

on the other hand, there's also a difference between college degree and arborist certification...but how many potential clients are going to know that? i've seen the ISA material for certification. it's aimed at the uneducated arborist. if i turned in the test, i'd be a certified arborist myself. would you want me cutting on your tree? not if you knew.

as for getting college degrees - it's not all about will and determination. some people are not capable, and other people never have the opportunity. it would be incorrect to think that anyone can make the opportunity if they just want to badly enough. even considering that some people could do it if they were just willing to make big sacrifices, there's still a number of people for whom the opportunity will never arise (and from personal experience, i can tell you that once you have a family it can be very, very taxing indeed to get those degrees).

for people who don't have a degree, if you ever have the opportunity and can possibly make whatever sacrifices are necessary to go to college, then go for it. do it. because what you will actually get from that college education that is really important to you as a person is not the degree, but the challenge to expand your own thinking, and exposure to so many things and people and ideas that you're not getting now.

but, if you can't go for a degree, then read. read. read. not just your trade magazines and the local newspapers. they're dumbed down to reach as wide an audience as possible. read novels - read technical journals - read scientific articles - medical reviews - biographies. i assume you have access to a library, and if you're on this forum, then you have access to everything you can possibly want to read about on the internet. read the stuff you like, and then read the stuff that challenges you - the things you don't understand - the things that have words you never heard of - and make it a point to find out what those words mean. and if you don't understand the technical or scientific articles, keep reading them anyway - and each time you find out what something means, you'll file that away where it will help you understand something else later. (okay - at least that's been MY experience. i knew absolutely zilch about calculus and organic chemistry when i started - don't know so very much about either now that i've finished, but i know some, and know i could go on and learn even more with the base i built trying to read stuff i didn't understand.) and , of course, read university publications and journal articles, magazines, books, about trees and insects and pathogens and water and light and everything in the system in which you are working. just because you don't have a college education does not mean you have to be illiterate or uneducated. you can be self-educated.

and experience is priceless.

anyway, i have to get back over to the off topic forum before i lose my bet with jesus.

 

[monkeypuzzle]

Don't ya just love the ones that are educated beyond their intelligence

 

[BigJohn]

This is funny. In my area they would hire me if I said I was a"rilly good climber" Most companies in my area where I live are small. I believe with their climber attitudes they are intimidated by someone uses equipment they never heard of. I don't go around bragging and I'm not out to set the world on fire. I just go out and fun and pace myself to get through day with out getting done too early and getting trouble for it. That's right if I get done a job too quick I am punished by having to find more work to do on the property for free. This usually means just going up and climbing for fun to remove a hanger or something stupid to kill the time.

I wish that I had decided to go college. I went for a year never enrolled but had my own dorm and had alot of fun. Your losing out on all the fun and girls did I mention girls. Nick stay in college work sucks.

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

Well, Nate was not exactly humble in his post, but thn I don't think I've ever seen one like that from him.

I did not pursue higher education because I know I'm a lousey student. Learning has always come easy to me and doing the homework is boring, can never get good grades that way. Sleeping through many of the classes did not help either.

I am taking a few colege courses now and then these days, might try to pursue law one of these years.

By I digress

The value of an education is the ordering of your mind, learning soem things and learnign how to find and assimilate information.

Most of those who have both go farther then those who have just the experiance. As stated above, there is more to arboriculture then climbing trees. If you do sprays you can identify insects and pests that you treat regularly, but what about something new?

Can one without the education and a few years of expericance climbing visualize compartmentalization? I've known a number of pwople who have trouble understanding it as a 3 dimentional event.

Once again it comes back to the individual, what do you want to do with your life?

I spent over 3 weeks traveling with young Nick and I know he is going to go far. He has the mind and body to excel in this professions many aspects.

 

[TheTreeSpyder]

Wow, that is a prety poignant post for a big bear ;

Really love: "Don't ya just love the ones that are educated beyond their intelligence"; and am sure to quote that often, perhaps even abuse..........

i think; that education is finding out the comprehensive linking and properties of things and ways they work. Whether it be effectively understanding the 'mechancis' of the law or other system, culture, finance, science, education itself etc.. A lot of it is processing, categorizing, enacting and how things in diffrent groups have binding properties, and there defining diffrences from the rest.

A lot of IQ stuff is pattern recognition; so i exercise to find the pattern, and things defined in groups with properties, following the flow through them. You can see a lot of these pattterns unfolding before you everyday, if you can decode them without the usual keys given in later school years. If you are receptive to such things, and inquisitive; you can forge quite an education, but sometimes with lack of structure compared to formal education, but in the range of understanding often a better sense of things. Sometimes working and clawing for something rather than being given it, forges that 'feel' for how it goes. Or a sense of feel, for when your honestly on the trail of something, seeing it as it really is.

Also, education can give a common base of communication, both as tools to absorb, as well as to extend. And more links to associate things with, enter into a proffession with the tools as a common base to start learning etc.

Pretty fair discussion for a bunch of sweaty tree jocks!

:alien:

 

[M.D. Vaden]

I started college while working at a country club. At the country club, we only used about 6 different pesticides. About my second year of work there, I went to college. One of the three classes I started with was Pesticides. I learned about at least 40 pesticides as well as many other things.

The turfgrass class taught be much, much more than work did.

What work did for me, was to help me really understand what I was learning.

That's why I went to college part-time over a 7 year period. Its so I could really learn. I took each class and applied the learning to my work.

I am a fan of college and work together.